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Friday, April 17, 2009

Placing the Genesis summary over what we know

I have grown more in my knowledge of the subject of Genesis and how it outlines the creation account. So I removed my post from a long time ago that took one of the atheists I had talked to and his account of creation because I got a few points wrong and I am going to demonstrate how the Biblical account fits the scientific evidence.

The beginning - the big bang if that is what you want to call it.

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

This was actually a singularity that began spreading out, which is exactly what the Bible describes as well. This spreading out is a part of big bang cosmology and points back to a beginning of this universe from things not seen. Job 9:8 is one such passage. There are several more. Psalm 104 also touches on several of the creation events as does Job 38, 39, and 40. Hebrews 11:3 speaks of this beginning as one that is ex nihilo.

Then we move forward in time after this. Moses then describes the initial conditions of the Earth. From this point forward, all that is described is coming from the position of one standing on the surface of the Earth.

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

If you note the movie, How the Earth was Made, it uses these same exact words to describe the initial conditions of the Earth. It is without life and a water world.

And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

This demonstrates that the primordial gases of the Earth dissipated so that it was no longer completely dark and light could penetrate creating the day and night. This occurred with the creating of the moon. The impact of a large Mars sized asteroid hit this planet at the just right angle and at the just right speed to create our moon, which created day and night.

And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

This impact also allowed the water to exist in all three states - liquid, ice and vapor. The very next thing that occurs is that there is the building of water vapor. Apparently, this caused a great deal of rain.

The remarkable thing about this is the life had come into being at this point in the microbial forms. We are discovering now that the clouds are seeded with these microbes and probably cannot exist without them. The minutes these things can exist, they do exist.

And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the third day.

Land begins to emerge and the plate tectonics that are so necessary for life here begin to form. The microbes are still doing a job on this planet transforming poisonous metals to usable ores.
Even though many of these trees did not actually come about until about 140 million years ago or at least it is assumed this is true, this process of photosynthesis began right here. Also, whenever life could exist, it did exist even if it went extinct for a period of time. This is when we see the first photosynthetic life called cyanobacteria doing the job of acclimating our atmosphere.

And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God (had) made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he (had) made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

According to astrophysics, the newer solar systems that they can view has a gaseous cloud around them. At this time that disipated completely and the earth was at a place where seasons etc could begin. Also the moon had slowed down the rotation of the Earth to a 23-24 hour day. And the Earth was able to circle the sun in one complete year. The moon and the sun had already been made. The word "made" in this text is translated correctly in the past tense. The sun was created on the first day. It had to be here for night and day to exist on the Earth.

And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

This is what we see next in the fossil record. We see that animals began in the oceans and then dinosaurs and birds. The word "great whales" is the word tanniyn, which means dinosaur. See: http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H8577&t=KJV.

The birds are also created at this time. Then there is a huge cataclysmic event that destroys most everything on the planet including this huge sea dragons and creatures. This is seen in the geologic record as the KT boundary. There are no dinosaurs above this point and no placental mammals such as cattle below it.

And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Almost immediately after this explosive event, there is another radiation event where life springs forth and is created.

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

That is what we see next - man created in the image of God with attributes far above the animals. Then God rest on the seventh day and hallowed our seventh day as a result to keep holy. There was never an evening and morning on the seventh day because we are still in that day of rest, which is why we can enter into His rest. See Hebrews 4. Of course, now that we are in a new dispensation, every day can be holy.

There is no new creating events after the point that man comes on the scene. This is just a rough draft of an outline that shows how Moses got all these points in the right order without the aid of modern technology. Only a Creator could know these things. The things we test in science of our natural world fit the Genesis account along with the other creation accounts in the Bible.

Vera


17 comments:

Railboy said...

>>And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

>>If you note the movie, How the Earth was Made, it uses these same exact words to describe the initial conditions of the Earth. It is without life and a water world.

At this point there was light - a lot of it. And if you go back to the singularity expanding, there would be almost impossibly bright light filling the universe. How do you reconcile this with the fact that God doesn't say, 'let there be light' until after this state?

captain howdy said...

@Vera--

You said:

I am going to demonstrate how the Biblical account fits the scientific evidence.Could you please describe--explicitly--what is the scientific evidence that convinced you the earth existed 4 days before the sun did? I'll just start with that one for now.

verandoug said...

Railboy

At this point there was light - a lot of it. And if you go back to the singularity expanding, there would be almost impossibly bright light filling the universe. How do you reconcile this with the fact that God doesn't say, 'let there be light' until after this state?He says that He began in the beginning. The next thing that is described is the initial conditions of the earth and the Spirit hovering over the waters. After that point, each event is viewed as one standing on the earth's surface. If you do a search on youtube for Journey Toward Creation you can see how this unfolded from a Biblical perspective.

The sun had already been made. The verb "made" is in the past tense. The stars were created "in the beginning." What happened on the fourth day was that things were stabilized and light was clearly penetrating the Earth's surface. I personally believe that our testing of our natural world unlocks these truths. 1 Thess 5:21 commands us to "test all things; hold fast to that which is good."

Vera

verandoug said...

CH

Could you please describe--explicitly--what is the scientific evidence that convinced you the earth existed 4 days before the sun did? I'll just start with that one for now.I don't believe that. I believe the stars were created in the beginning. The sun came with the spreading out of the heavens and the moon came about when a Mars sized rock hit the earth at the just right angle. The part where God said, "Let there be light was this." What the fourth day is about is that the planet became stable in its orbit and rotation and the gaseous elements in space were absorbed so that light could penetrate clearly. The word "made" is in the past tense. The translators translated it correctly but it could have been better said "had already been made."

Vera

captain howdy said...

Vera--



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So, the Bible tells us that earth was created on Day 1; see Gen. 1:

1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.


OK so far? Earth on Day 1....then in vv. 16-19 we see:

16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

17And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

18And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

19And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
Which seems to say the sun was created on Day 4. So the way it breaks down in the Bible is: Earth--Day 1; Sun--Day 4.When I pointed this out to you, if I understood you properly, your response was:

"I don't believe that. I believe the stars were created in the beginning. The sun came with the spreading out of the heavens and the moon came about when a Mars sized rock hit the earth at the just right angle."So, I guess this means you disagree with the Genesis account, just like I do. This further suggests that the Biblical account actually doesn't line up with observed evidence very well.

verandoug said...

OK so far? Earth on Day 1....then in vv. 16-19 we see:The Earth was created "in the beginning," which we know in science covered about 9 billion years.

Interestingly, most theologians knew there was a time period between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2, they just didn't have the means to test any of their theories.

Day #1 doesn't begin until after the Earth is created and the initial conditions are described.

So, I guess this means you disagree with the Genesis account, just like I do. This further suggests that the Biblical account actually doesn't line up with observed evidence very well. On the contrary, the Genesis 1 account is in perfect harmony with reality. What I disagree with is one man's interpretation of the text. See, CH, many men, as you probably already know, have hypothesized on this topic. The only way to know certain physical truths presented in the Bible is to test the hypothesis through science and that is why God said to test all things; hold fast to that which is good.

There was no way to describe every single natural phenomenon on the Earth. There are millions upon millions of created things left out of the Bible. John said that if they were written down, the world couldn't contain all the books. So what God did through His Word is to give you some highlights that would span many centuries of people at varying degrees of scientific understanding. I think He did a pretty good job of it. :-)
Vera

ImtheRabbit said...

"when a Mars sized rock hit the earth at the just right angle."

Why did God decide to use a "mars sized rock" to make the moon? Why didn't he just make it himself? That really doesn't make sense, God through a rock at the planet to make a moon. So God was basically in the Stone Age using stone tools.

ImtheRabbit said...

Sorry that should have been Threw

verandoug said...

I think that God has a modus operandi where He uses His created world, the physics He created here and right timing to create in this particular universe. He may not operate like that elsewhere, but here, that is how He has chosen to work with us. By using the natural world as opposed to things that might defy those laws, He leaves something behind for us to test that proves that He did it because, see, this impact had to hit at the exact right spot at the exact right time in the exact right way or water would not exist in all three states and life couldn't not exist here. The margin for error was miniscule.

Vera

ImtheRabbit said...

“I think that God has a modus operandi where He uses His created world, the physics He created here and right timing to create in this particular universe. He may not operate like that elsewhere, but here, that is how He has chosen to work with us. By using the natural world as opposed to things that might defy those laws, He leaves something behind for us to test that proves that He did it because, see, this impact had to hit at the exact right spot at the exact right time in the exact right way or water would not exist in all three states and life couldn't not exist here. The margin for error was miniscule.”

Ok, then how did Jacob cause animals to be born with stripes using stripped wood that placed near them? We test that and it doesn’t work, does that mean the bible is flawed?

Or how did Jonah survive and not be digested when he lived inside a fish?

He also broke his laws when was born of a virgin, walked on water, brought people back to life, healed the sick, and came back to life after death. I guess that doesn’t count though cause he was trying to make a point.

(oh and I come back here cause I kinda like ya Vera, you try and understand instead of just following blindly. That, and you answer my questions giving me a christian point of view)

ImtheRabbit said...

Since we are speaking of Genesis, what is going on in 35:22... this is just so hard to follow. How does anyone make sence of this. Jacobs son sleeps with his fathers concubine and then we get a list of Jacobs sons... it doesn't make any sense... am I missing something?

verandoug said...

ImaRabbit

“I think that God has a modus operandi where He uses His created world, the physics He created here and right timing to create in this particular universe. He may not operate like that elsewhere, but here, that is how He has chosen to work with us. By using the natural world as opposed to things that might defy those laws, He leaves something behind for us to test that proves that He did it because, see, this impact had to hit at the exact right spot at the exact right time in the exact right way or water would not exist in all three states and life couldn't not exist here. The margin for error was miniscule.”

Ok, then how did Jacob cause animals to be born with stripes using stripped wood that placed near them? We test that and it doesn’t work, does that mean the bible is flawed?
If you look closely at the text, he is stripping these branches or rods to get to the pulp inside. There is the clue. White poplar along with the other ingredients created a hormonal change in the animals so that they were ready to mate after they came to drink. Actually, it was quite ingenious for a goat herder to figure out genetics. There is other evidence in the fossil record that suggests that modern man was practicing genetics with crops thousands of years ago.

Or how did Jonah survive and not be digested when he lived inside a fish?This was most definitely a transcendent miracle. The things that are created or made are testable. When God defies one of His physical laws, it is a miracle that cannot be put to the test. You can't take my freedom from sin, for example, and put it in a test tube. You can't get inside my head to know that I am sincerely freed from sin by His power. All I can do is testify to you that my heart and life are changed.

He also broke his laws when was born of a virgin, walked on water, brought people back to life, healed the sick, and came back to life after death. I guess that doesn’t count though cause he was trying to make a point.Yes, that is true. But the part where God says that He is clearly seen is not in transcendent miracles. It is within the things that are made and within those things, He has made this world testable.

There are so many Christians that see the created world in the same light as these miracles. In a sense, they are right because creation itself is a miracle. But at the same time, they are wrong because they would argue, for example, that the earth was created in 6 literal days because of their understanding of Genesis 1 and the way the word "yom" was translated in the KJV of the Bible. One of the definitions for "yom" is 24 hour day but another was a time period. They too are totally looking at creation as a transcendent miracle that cannot be tested. So they scoff at all creation science as a result. I think both perspectives are wrong. If God says that He is CLEARLY SEEN, then those events must be clearly seen to be understood. We don't know how the virgin birth took place or how the Holy Spirit worked in a woman at the microscopic level. None of that information is "clearly seen." But in the created world, we should be able to know some things so that we can clearly see them.

(oh and I come back here cause I kinda like ya Vera, you try and understand instead of just following blindly. That, and you answer my questions giving me a christian point of view)Thanks. I appreciate that. My heart is to try to help you to come to Jesus as Lord and Savior. Your soul is more precious to me than anything else. I have been working on some video materials for the last few days for a friend who is starting an orphanage in Jamaica. Sorry for not getting back to you sooner.

Vera

verandoug said...

Since we are speaking of Genesis, what is going on in 35:22... this is just so hard to follow. How does anyone make sence of this. Jacobs son sleeps with his fathers concubine and then we get a list of Jacobs sons... it doesn't make any sense... am I missing something?In American society, this would make no sense. We would look at this and think, "So what?" But in the eyes of people that were extremely moral and were honorable, this was a slap in the face. This statement not only exposed Reuben but put a blot on his name. The firstborn played a huge role in the family line. When Reuben slept with Bilhah, he gave up his birthright. You can see that here when Jacob is blessing his sons at the end of his life that he pretty much curses his son, Reuben.

Reuben, thou art my firstborn, my might, and the beginning of my strength, the excellency of dignity, and the excellency of power: Unstable as water, thou shalt not excel; because thou wentest up to thy father's bed; then defiledst thou it: he went up to my couch.Jacob transfers the birthright to Judah and Joseph. It was through the lineage of Judah that the Messiah was born.

Vera

Imtherabbit said...

I'm sorry Vera, it seems I am unsavable... I thought that perhaps, now that time had passed, I might see things in a new light, but I don't. I've been reading the bible and I've come to a very different conclusion about it, faith and the church. The conclusion I made in my youth, about the bible being just another myth, is still what I believe. The more I read the bible, the more I see the myths of other cultures within it. I don't believe the Bible is the word of the God of Abraham and so I have no connection to the God of Abraham. I do not believe in the divinity of Jesus, I believe he was a smart man trying to change the world around him. I believe the Christian faith was formed to give the teachings of Jesus the authority it needed to change the laws of God, and that is why he is depicted as divine. Only God could change the laws of God, and so Jesus had to become God. This gave people freedom from the old laws and the punishment of death for breaking them but kept the authority within Church and within the Bible.

So you see I believe it is all a lie, fabricated by a Church that wanted to stay in power and hold authority over the people.

This is what my heart tells me, this is the conclusion I have come to with my study, and I don't think there is anything that can alter that conclusion.

I know this might bring you sadness, because for you I am now destined for hell. If it helps at all, I am happy with what I am and what I believe and if I do end up in hell, I will have no regrets because I followed my own faith and beliefs and I know nothing could have changed that.

I am glad you are happy with your faith Vera, even if I don’t share it and I hope your future is bright and filled with love because I think that is what life is all about. Thanks for being so kind to me and in return I will not disrupt your blog or comment against your faith here. Thanks :)

verandoug said...

Imtherabbit
I am glad you are happy with your faith Vera, even if I don’t share it and I hope your future is bright and filled with love because I think that is what life is all about. Thanks for being so kind to me and in return I will not disrupt your blog or comment against your faith here. Thanks :)
One thing you are misinformed about is the bondage you believe the church was teaching. It was just the opposite. The holiness of the Law didn't change either. Paul affirmed this in Romans. But what he was teaching was freedom from sin through the power of the Spirit of God right down to your thought life. This doesn't come by tangible proofs but by faith. That is the part we miss. Faith is letting go of the past and taking hold of the future with God not knowing what to expect or what will come.

Hell's fire is the punishment for sin. Without a pardon from sin and freedom from sin, we are destined to spend eternity with satan. The church did take on an authoritarian role at certain times. But that was never the intent of what Jesus did. They were supposed to be servants, not lording their authority over people. Those that were a part of the church were held accountable for their actions where it came to sin but sin was defined and clear. So in that regard, you could say that there was a measure of control. The consequence of continuing in sin was forfeiting fellowship.

If you ever want to talk again, I am here. The door is always open and you are welcome. I think you need to know that you are fornicating with this man you are with vow or not. You must repent to come to God. It is the only way and you must be filled with His Spirit. That dynamic makes the Word of God come to life. No happiness in this life is worth hell's fire. This life is very short compared to eternity. Jesus is the only way to the Father.

Vera

Da Bomb said...

Hey Vera,

I am no science guru and I was wondering if I could copy and paste your views of an old earth and the Bible account on my blog?
I want another view to help any person to come to know Christ and to let them know that science does not and can not refute God.

I currently don't believe in evolution but I am interested in other views that say the Bible supports it.

I thought your explantions sounded interesting.

I will give you credit for it on my blog and post a link to your blog from it.

I saw you and Steven J. have some scraps :) I couldn't follow what you were on about LOL.
Many thanks and blessings,

Dan

verandoug said...

Dan,
I'm terribly sorry for not responding sooner. I have been so busy trying to get a job. Anyway, you are free to use my stuff on your site. I use mostly Reasons to Believe's materials. They just did some excellent podcasts that are free on iTunes to promote their new book Why the Universe is the Way it is. I am enjoying those.
Thanks so much!
Vera

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