We travel around the US with a team of men and women targeting places where we know we'll find sinners. We knew we would find some church going Christians but what we found was shocking. It wasn't the heathen at these wicked evil events. It was the entire church! Please pray for us as we go out to go find those that have gone astray.
Blog Archive
Thursday, March 26, 2009
Do you talk about all sin?
Just to show Leigh, these are the signs we carry that cover many sins, not just sexual perversion, which is an abomination to God.
It's still not all of them, so you're still a hypocrite. You and your gang of bible thugs probably commit these sins all the time, or at some point have, so that also makes you a hypocrite. It's also none of your business, so you're also a busybody.
That is what 1 Cor. 6:9-11 says, "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind (homosexuals), nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Ok but but Noah got naked and drunk... and then cursed his grandson because his son saw him naked?
I told ya this OT is confusing... And I can't decide if I should use the King James, New King James or the international version of the bible... when did we get an 'international' version.. how many versions are there?.. what's missing or has been added to these different versions and how are we supposed to know God preferes one over the other?..
Well, I suppose all females are going to hell, huh, Vera? Since we're all 'effeminate'.
You never, ever sin, do you Vera? Go ahead, lie to me.
The Greek word clearly meant men.
I don't like the things that God hates, Leigh. My mind has so been transformed from darkness to light. I don't want to cheat on my husband. I hate it when men walk in error. I can forgive when I am offended. I continue to look to God for the ability to walk uprightly with Him through His Word and through His Spirit and I do. It is not of myself, but a gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast. That same power is available to you.
Ok but but Noah got naked and drunk... and then cursed his grandson because his son saw him naked?
The OT characters of the Bible did a lot of things because of the hardness of their hearts. Jesus made mention of that in terms of divorce. He said that Moses gave them a writing of divorcement because of that. I see slavery, multiple wives, and lying in the same light. The Israelites were constantly being judged by God because they were pack of sinners. Even today in Israel, you would think with all the Law they have, that they would walk uprightly with God, but they don't. See, the Law can't make a man righteous. It was only pockets of times when they would walk uprightly with God. They could choose to walk in the Law, but often didn't. Paul made the point that where there is no Law, sin is not imputed. Once you know God's holy standard and continue to walk in sin, it is sin. Since the Law is written on our hearts, almost all people groups know the Law. A worse scenario than the one you just mentioned was when Lot's daughters got him drunk, had sex with him, and birthed each a son. The one was Ammon and the other was Moab. Ruth, of the Bible, was a Moabitess. She is in the lineage of King David and thus, Jesus. There is also Ammonite blood in that lineage. God can redeem the worst of situations even today on a much greater scale because He can transform us on the inside if we let Him. If we submit our lives to Him, He will give us truth and the Truth will set us free. The most challenging part of that is that we have an adversary, the devil, that seeks to steal, kill and destroy. He is constantly throwing monkey wrenches into the mix and we have to persevere through those times. In my 30 years of staying faithful, God has always come through for me!
I told ya this OT is confusing... And I can't decide if I should use the King James, New King James or the international version of the bible... when did we get an 'international' version.. how many versions are there?.. what's missing or has been added to these different versions and how are we supposed to know God preferes one over the other?..
I prefer the KJV. But sometimes, the NKJV says it better. For example, I like the way the NKJV describes Paul's encounter with Barjesus in Acts 13. Some of the creation events in Genesis are better said in the NIV. I believe this is because the man that worked on those, did an excellent job. All in all though, you have to often look back at the original text and see the Bible as a whole unit, never one verse. That is the worst way to approach it because one verse in a dialogue can be misconstrued to mean whatever the person wants it to say. We have so much bad teaching because of that approach. I could give you hundreds of examples. You have to compare the conclusion with the rest of what's there in much the same way we approach science and the record of nature. If we surmise that something is one way because a lot of facts line up and then do another experiment that pretty much discounts the first hypothesis, we don't just continue to assume that the first conclusion was right. We "self correct." The same is true of Scripture only it is hard to get people to admit their error.
Lot's daughters got him drunk, had sex with him, and birthed each a son. The one was Ammon and the other was Moab
Ya I don't remember that the first time I tried to read the Bible but I was very young. It's quite the tale. Lot also mentioned sons in law and people seem to have some theories about that, that perhaps the daughters were engaged since they'd never been touched by men.
Yes, I'm trying not to judge the book till I reach the ending, I know everything changes once you start reading the NT.
As for Moses being the author of the OT, I'm not sure about that. Maybe originally but it seems there is more then one author. I had to re-read the story of creation. In the first version God makes humans, both sexes, then we go back and he makes Adam and then he makes Eve. Seems like 2 diffrent stories. The problem is all this tranlation and messing with the original texts. I think we lost some stuff that might have been important (at least today) but was taken out when they finnaly came to putting all the scriptures into the one book.
I would love to spend some time in the Vatican. I'd love to see what they've hidden away through the years. Who in their right mind would let Rome have control. They went from a whole lot of Gods to pretty much the same only with a bit of christianity mixed in cause it was 'all the rage' :P
Ok but but Noah got naked and drunk... and then cursed his grandson because his son saw him naked?
I told ya this OT is confusing... And I can't decide if I should use the King James, New King James or the international version of the bible... when did we get an 'international' version.. how many versions are there?.. what's missing or has been added to these different versions and how are we supposed to know God preferes one over the other?..
Let's not confuse the morals of the OT saints to the new. Remember they did not have the power of the Spirit being born again. They made huge mistakes. King David was a wonderful man of God except he killed a man so that he could have his wife. Very naughty. Nathan pointed it out to him too. God hates sin including the fact that Noah was drunk. But then Noah didn't know that no drunkard would inherit the kingdom. Because he didn't know that, sin was not imputed to him. But you are absolutely right, Noah was in the wrong. The whole point of the story is to point that out. The two that were righteous were Shem and Japheth.
Yes, I'm trying not to judge the book till I reach the ending, I know everything changes once you start reading the NT.
It really doesn't change. God doesn't change one iota. Please understand that. He still hates sin today as much as yesterday. Some people like to suggest that God changed after the NT into a loving God where before He was all mean and such. In fact, He is probably angrier since He paid such a price to redeem us and when we sin we trodden that gift under our feet. What Jesus did was to bring a new covenant so that we no longer needed the Law to be righteous. We could have a righteousness that is by faith and therefore, set free from sin. Jesus took the problem to such a level that it would be impossible to keep because it was things within us that He pointed to that He made equal to the act such as lust or hatred being adultery and murder.
As for Moses being the author of the OT, I'm not sure about that.
He is the author of the Pentateuch, but not necessarily the rest. The scribes were the ones commissioned to write things down.
Maybe originally but it seems there is more then one author. I had to re-read the story of creation. In the first version God makes humans, both sexes, then we go back and he makes Adam and then he makes Eve. Seems like 2 diffrent stories. One is in chronological order mentioning some pieces of creation in the order in which they came in time. The other gives an overview of some of the events. The second is not a chronological account. They are two completely different stories as is Psalm 104 and Job 38-40. The way to bring cohesion to this is to look at it like a treasure hunt or a jigsaw puzzle putting all the pieces together. When you do, it fits reality. If you take one portion and neglect the rest, it presents many contradictions to the truth.
The problem is all this tranlation and messing with the original texts. I think we lost some stuff that might have been important (at least today) but was taken out when they finnaly came to putting all the scriptures into the one book.
That is true. We know from the NT that Enoch's prophesy is missing. It must have been absolutely ancient. Only one line made it to the canonization. According to both John and Daniel there are things that they saw that God would not allow them to share. The ingenious part about the Bible is that it had to span every time period after it was written. So scientific facts that would be virtually impossible to understand, such as a microbe, are left out of the text. John says at the end of his gospel that if we were to write down everything Jesus did, the world couldn't contain all the books. That had to include the record of nature that He created. That tells me that there is a LOT left out. :-) The Bible is the sole source of spiritual truth.
For example, Hindus believe that we die and then come back as a bug or a rich man or anything in between. What does the Bible say about reincarnation? It says that it is appointed unto man to die once and then the judgment. So when we compare that truth against the Bible, it doesn't work. Not to mention that we all know now that the world will not last forever. So what happens to everyone once the world is gone? Where do they go then? Logic dictates once again that the Bible is true. Vera
It really doesn't change. God doesn't change one iota
I'm not really saying God changed, but that the teaching changed. God didn't tell Abram that it was wrong to basically sell his wife, but later it is finally said it is. If I were to only read Genesis I would think it was ok to do such a thing, because God never says it was wrong until later. That's what I meant by 'everything changes'. That statement probably should have been 'everything becomes clearer.' We are given more details on what God really wants.
So what happens to everyone once the world is gone? Where do they go then? Logic dictates once again that the Bible is true.
I don't think Logic dictates the bible is true because people have to "go" somewhere when the earth is gone. :/ To me Logic dictates that humans will become extinct like many of the animals that have come before us. The Dinosaurs are extinct; Logic doesn't dictate to me that they 'went' somewhere. It dictates they all died and no longer exist. Faith might tell me we go somewhere, but I don't think 'logic' does.
So any man that has more estrogen in his body and is more 'effeminate' than usual is going to hell? I guess this also includes those born as hermaphrodites and children with gender identity disorder. Your 'logic' is an utter failure again.
So any man that has more estrogen in his body and is more 'effeminate' than usual is going to hell? I guess this also includes those born as hermaphrodites and children with gender identity disorder. Your 'logic' is an utter failure again.
Oh yeah, do you ever sin, Vera?
I am free from sin, Leigh. It is one thing to be under the Law and not sin. It is another thing not to want to sin anymore and have the ability not to. That is what grace does in my life so that I do it naturally. That power comes from the Spirit of God and His Word.
Jesus said that there were people who were born eunuchs. Our bodies do not function perfectly because of sin that is in the world. We inherited a body of death from Adam, not sin. I think that is one of the reasons God hates sin so much. Children are so innocent of the world around them but are soon indoctrinated into the sin of this world through parents. The innocent always suffer because of sin.
These effeminate changes in men occur once they give into the sin. There is no doubt though that there is a change. It is not a congenital anomaly.
You have stated repeatedly that claims of the bible are being proven as true by scientists. I have and others here have REPEATEDLY asked for this proof, but refuse to give it.
Right, which is why I have been working since 7AM to answer all your questions that have been sitting here for several days. :-P
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, Romans 1:18-22
Here's the thing about this passage. I bolded the two points that Paul makes here about what makes man without excuse. One is that God has manifest Himself to everyone through the conscience. You know right from wrong. You judge me. That is a function of the conscience and makes you unlike the animals because it is part of being created in the image of God. You judge presidential candidates. You judge the church. You judge your own group as good and right based on your own understanding. The second point is that God is clearly seen in the things that are made. Ray Comfort often makes the point that if you see a building, there must be a builder. Here is an example from Harvard University of the working of the inside of a single cell. This is what shows up in the fossil record perfectly formed. As I've already shared with you, it is becoming evident that life could not have originated here on this earth except through divine intervention.
There is no evidence that anyone is going to get a 'new body', or that there id going to be any 'new earth', therefore your claim is pure speculation.
And God even says that. He says eye has not seen nor ear heard nor has entered into the heart of man what God has in store for those that love Him.
You do not know that hell is a real place without scientific proof that it is. You simply choose to believe that it is.
I know God through my spirit and His Word. God makes predictions in His Word. Did you know that? If you do this, this will happen. He also shares about the character of man and how he will react to certain things. He also promised to free me from sin and did. That is my biggest proof that happened to me personally. I know what my heart was like before and I know what it is like today. He has never let me down - ever.
You know what I find amazing is that the Pharisees are standing head to head with the Son of God and they don't know Him. They leave me in the dust with their fasting and prayer. I don't think that doing religious things gets us to know God. It is something else. It is listening and trusting and being humble that are part of how we get to know God. Knowing Him is what gets us into heaven. Sin separates us from knowing Him. You could fast till you're blue in the face but if you still entertain sin your heart, you don't know Him.
That's because you are trying to test them with your frail finite mind and abilities. How funny. Why don't you tell us what produced the big bang? What was before that? How did that occur? What brought it about? Please test that for us with peer reviewed scientific research that can prove your assertions.
We do not yet know what produced the big bang, however, scientists believe that the answer is closely related to string theory. We actually have real scientists working on this, not ones who start with the conclusion that a sky wizard did something and then look for biased 'evidence' that it's true.
This universe had a beginning. Part of the big bang model is a stretching out of the universe. The Bible said it first. Pretty good for goat herders if you ask me. They have been able to see back to the beginning through some sort of technology. It is complicated and I admit that physics is not my best subject. The point is that there was nothing here before there was something and the Bible declares that.
Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Then Psalm 104:2 Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:
Both of these fit big bang cosmology.
However, you are assuming that I believe the big bang actually happened. I have no idea what started the universe, and honestly, to me it doesn't matter. However,that doesn't mean a sky wizard did it.
Well, perhaps you need to do some more reading on this topic because the science has been establishing this for a while. You are speaking hypothetically and not through what is known.
Even psychology admits that there is an inner man. I know because I have been studying it in nursing and for the record, Freud copied it straight out of the Bible.
This is a complete non sequitur that does not answer my question, first of all, and second a lot of what Freud taught is no longer used in modern psychology. I don't particularly care about your claim that Freud plagiarized the bible, because Freud also had a lot of faults that made some of his psychology dubious at best.
I agree. Freud was a nut. But interestingly, in my nursing books they still hold to his Super Ego, Ego and ID. The Spirit, soul and body. Came straight out of the Bible.
I could so see you in the 18th and 19th century arguing for slavery. "That is strictly your opinion on slavery. You have no right to impose that opinion on the abolition of slavery on anyone else."
LOL !!! I am the one that has been advocating against slavery on your blog for 2 weeks and you now say you could see me advocating FOR it?? How stupid ARE you???
You are living in a day when slavery is no longer an issue. You are only seeing it from your narrow point of view. Had you been raised in that society, I guarantee you that you would be arguing for slavery because you would have insisted that the situation warranted it. You do it constantly with abortion, lesbianism and homosex.
Christians are the ones that brought over slaves from Africa. You can not get around that fact, Vera.
1 Cor. 6:9-11 clearly states that it is a deception to believe that a Christian sins. No person who is a believer steals men or women from their homes to be slaves. The Bible strictly condemns this in both the NT and the OT.
Christians kept slaves here in the States and used the bible to argue for keeping them.
ROFLOL. When are you going to get it through you thick brain that people can argue anything to rationalize and justify their sin even Heather has Two Mommies. IOW, you don't have to be a Christian to try and excuse sin. Oh, and btw, John Adams and his wife didn't own slaves. They had some servants but mostly she did the cooking and the cleaning. He also helped several slaves in legal matters.
Once again, it doesn't matter that Christians advocated to have them set free, when they started it int he first place and used the bible to advocate it.
How ridiculous, Leigh. Slavery has been around since the advent of sin. Hello.
Yes and babies started being murdered instead by the droves. The leading cause of death in America is murder - abortion
You completely skipped over my argument. When you are ready to go back and address it in full, let me know.
It is the leading cause of death in this country - bottom line.
Actually, it is exactly what you are saying. Since the mother wants to murder her child because she got caught with per proverbial pants down, now let's make the murder of the child an easy and safe thing for her.
Nooooooooo....that is not exactly what I was saying. You can keep claiming it is, but that doesn't make it true. NOT ALL WOMEN WHO HAVE ABORTIONS ARE 'CAUGHT WITH THEIR PANTS DOWN', VERA.
The majority are. Only about 1% comprise the rest.
But, to address the other half of your argument, you just caught yourself in your own web. Do you think that women who seek abortions deserve to die? A simple yes or nor no will do.
No. In the good ole days, folks made a decision - the baby or the mom. Sometimes they chose the baby.
So how have you evolved? What? Now you buy your goat at the Piggly Wiggly and that somehow makes you superior intellectually?
The fact that I have critical thinking skills, logic and a large does of skepticism and use them on a daily basis to challenge everything I believe makes me intellectually superior to you. It has nothing to do with where I shop. I also don't eat pork.
Good for you. I like skeptics. Nathaniel was a skeptic.
I have heard secular anthropologists say that the men of 10,000 years ago had the some cognizant abilities and abstract thinking that we possess today without the data base of knowledge. The remarkable thing is that they wrote those things without the means to test them and they match reality.
Anddddddddd here we go again. WHICH 'things' in the bible 'match reality'?
In this case, from the very beginning, man demonstrates that he is created in the image of God.
The difference between you and most Christians is that you take responsibility for your actions. But even still that doesn't make you good enough compared to a Holy God. Only through the blood of Jesus can you receive that pardon for sin.
I am not in the least concerned about being good enough for your friend that lives in your head.
You aren't good enough, that's the point and be assured, just because He hasn't up till this point, taken the time to reach out to you doesn't make Him not real. It is your pride that is in the way. Don't let your skepticism get in the way of knowing your Creator. The two are not at odds. God wants you to test and study and not buy into everything.
Proverbs 14:15 says this, "The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going.
Can you tell me more of your story? How and why did you walk away from the church? It might help me help you.
I walked away from Christianity after years of struggle with the fact that it makes no sense and is illogical. This was not something that I woke up one morning and decided might be fun. I learned to think logically and critically and applied those thinking skills to my religion and saw that it made no sense. There's a LOT more to it than that, but that's a small nutshell. I also started to read tons of books about comparative religion and science. I also was an extremely devout Christian who prayed and fasted, truly believed that Jesus was the only way to heaven and that since I was saved I was going there, and I also tried to convert others. I saw the 'hand of God' in every single tiny instance of my life. I was not a middle of the road wishy-washy/Christmas and Easter only type. I felt incredibly deceived when I learned to think and started reading books about textural criticism of the bible. I realized that I had been lied to. Yes, I was lied to by well meaning people, but I was lied to nonetheless.
LOL! Vera, you are not going to talk me back into believing the mythology of Christianity. I'd love to see you try, but it won't work.
Can you be more specific? Thanks for sharing this, btw. It has taken me several posts to get to this one point. What did you feel was the one thing that contradicted what you believed? Were you also reading Heather has Two Mommies to your students at this time? Did you believe that abortion was more logical than abstinence and righteous living? Did you know God back then? When you fasted, did you feel His presence? Did you read the Word daily?
One confusion about Scripture is the lives and decisions of those of the OT, which are clearly not the kind of lives we would consider righteous. These people were the means to bring the Messiah to this Earth through Jesus. But they were often led of their flesh and were only kept in check through a severe Law that had strict boundaries. Abraham did not have the Law when he made the choice to give Sarah to the king. God didn't tell him to do that. God had to actually fix the situation by putting a fire under Abimelech who came dangerously close to defiling Sarah. It was a really bad decision. I am just telling you that because you have to be careful to observe when God is intervening and when men make decisions. We are beings with freewill choice. We can choose. God doesn't control us. He allows us that ability to choose.
The difference between now and then is that Jesus died on the cross for us so that His Spirit could live in our hearts so that the Father can transform us into the image of His Son. That is what grace is. It is His divine nature given to us to be freed from sin. We are no longer under that Law to be righteous. We now have His Spirit with us all the time to help us and guide us. What is amazing is that we don't hardly even realize that we are choosing right until it is in our past.
One major problem today is that the church is not doing what it's supposed to be doing. So there is a lot of teaching that doesn't match the Bible. It is a mixture of fluffy sugary stuff to get people to come to church.
But God is faithful to reserve Himself a people who have not bowed the knee to Baal.
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It's still not all of them, so you're still a hypocrite. You and your gang of bible thugs probably commit these sins all the time, or at some point have, so that also makes you a hypocrite. It's also none of your business, so you're also a busybody.
Effeminate people are going to hell? HAHAHAHAAHA!
Wow, Vera, that's quite a list. I would imagine that you're on it.
Effeminate people are going to hell? HAHAHAHAAHA!
That is what 1 Cor. 6:9-11 says, "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind (homosexuals), nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Vera
Wow, Vera, that's quite a list. I would imagine that you're on it.
I was on it at one time. Now I am redeemed.
Vera
Well, I suppose all females are going to hell, huh, Vera? Since we're all 'effeminate'.
You never, ever sin, do you Vera? Go ahead, lie to me.
nor drunkards,
Ok but but Noah got naked and drunk... and then cursed his grandson because his son saw him naked?
I told ya this OT is confusing... And I can't decide if I should use the King James, New King James or the international version of the bible... when did we get an 'international' version.. how many versions are there?.. what's missing or has been added to these different versions and how are we supposed to know God preferes one over the other?..
Well, I suppose all females are going to hell, huh, Vera? Since we're all 'effeminate'.
You never, ever sin, do you Vera? Go ahead, lie to me.
The Greek word clearly meant men.
I don't like the things that God hates, Leigh. My mind has so been transformed from darkness to light. I don't want to cheat on my husband. I hate it when men walk in error. I can forgive when I am offended. I continue to look to God for the ability to walk uprightly with Him through His Word and through His Spirit and I do. It is not of myself, but a gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast. That same power is available to you.
Vera
IC
Ok but but Noah got naked and drunk... and then cursed his grandson because his son saw him naked?
The OT characters of the Bible did a lot of things because of the hardness of their hearts. Jesus made mention of that in terms of divorce. He said that Moses gave them a writing of divorcement because of that. I see slavery, multiple wives, and lying in the same light. The Israelites were constantly being judged by God because they were pack of sinners. Even today in Israel, you would think with all the Law they have, that they would walk uprightly with God, but they don't. See, the Law can't make a man righteous. It was only pockets of times when they would walk uprightly with God. They could choose to walk in the Law, but often didn't. Paul made the point that where there is no Law, sin is not imputed. Once you know God's holy standard and continue to walk in sin, it is sin. Since the Law is written on our hearts, almost all people groups know the Law. A worse scenario than the one you just mentioned was when Lot's daughters got him drunk, had sex with him, and birthed each a son. The one was Ammon and the other was Moab. Ruth, of the Bible, was a Moabitess. She is in the lineage of King David and thus, Jesus. There is also Ammonite blood in that lineage. God can redeem the worst of situations even today on a much greater scale because He can transform us on the inside if we let Him. If we submit our lives to Him, He will give us truth and the Truth will set us free. The most challenging part of that is that we have an adversary, the devil, that seeks to steal, kill and destroy. He is constantly throwing monkey wrenches into the mix and we have to persevere through those times. In my 30 years of staying faithful, God has always come through for me!
I told ya this OT is confusing... And I can't decide if I should use the King James, New King James or the international version of the bible... when did we get an 'international' version.. how many versions are there?.. what's missing or has been added to these different versions and how are we supposed to know God preferes one over the other?..
I prefer the KJV. But sometimes, the NKJV says it better. For example, I like the way the NKJV describes Paul's encounter with Barjesus in Acts 13. Some of the creation events in Genesis are better said in the NIV. I believe this is because the man that worked on those, did an excellent job. All in all though, you have to often look back at the original text and see the Bible as a whole unit, never one verse. That is the worst way to approach it because one verse in a dialogue can be misconstrued to mean whatever the person wants it to say. We have so much bad teaching because of that approach. I could give you hundreds of examples. You have to compare the conclusion with the rest of what's there in much the same way we approach science and the record of nature. If we surmise that something is one way because a lot of facts line up and then do another experiment that pretty much discounts the first hypothesis, we don't just continue to assume that the first conclusion was right. We "self correct." The same is true of Scripture only it is hard to get people to admit their error.
Vera
Lot's daughters got him drunk, had sex with him, and birthed each a son. The one was Ammon and the other was Moab
Ya I don't remember that the first time I tried to read the Bible but I was very young. It's quite the tale. Lot also mentioned sons in law and people seem to have some theories about that, that perhaps the daughters were engaged since they'd never been touched by men.
Yes, I'm trying not to judge the book till I reach the ending, I know everything changes once you start reading the NT.
As for Moses being the author of the OT, I'm not sure about that. Maybe originally but it seems there is more then one author. I had to re-read the story of creation. In the first version God makes humans, both sexes, then we go back and he makes Adam and then he makes Eve. Seems like 2 diffrent stories. The problem is all this tranlation and messing with the original texts. I think we lost some stuff that might have been important (at least today) but was taken out when they finnaly came to putting all the scriptures into the one book.
I would love to spend some time in the Vatican. I'd love to see what they've hidden away through the years. Who in their right mind would let Rome have control. They went from a whole lot of Gods to pretty much the same only with a bit of christianity mixed in cause it was 'all the rage' :P
IC
Ok but but Noah got naked and drunk... and then cursed his grandson because his son saw him naked?
I told ya this OT is confusing... And I can't decide if I should use the King James, New King James or the international version of the bible... when did we get an 'international' version.. how many versions are there?.. what's missing or has been added to these different versions and how are we supposed to know God preferes one over the other?..
Let's not confuse the morals of the OT saints to the new. Remember they did not have the power of the Spirit being born again. They made huge mistakes. King David was a wonderful man of God except he killed a man so that he could have his wife. Very naughty. Nathan pointed it out to him too. God hates sin including the fact that Noah was drunk. But then Noah didn't know that no drunkard would inherit the kingdom. Because he didn't know that, sin was not imputed to him. But you are absolutely right, Noah was in the wrong. The whole point of the story is to point that out. The two that were righteous were Shem and Japheth.
Vera
Yes, I'm trying not to judge the book till I reach the ending, I know everything changes once you start reading the NT.
It really doesn't change. God doesn't change one iota. Please understand that. He still hates sin today as much as yesterday. Some people like to suggest that God changed after the NT into a loving God where before He was all mean and such. In fact, He is probably angrier since He paid such a price to redeem us and when we sin we trodden that gift under our feet. What Jesus did was to bring a new covenant so that we no longer needed the Law to be righteous. We could have a righteousness that is by faith and therefore, set free from sin. Jesus took the problem to such a level that it would be impossible to keep because it was things within us that He pointed to that He made equal to the act such as lust or hatred being adultery and murder.
As for Moses being the author of the OT, I'm not sure about that.
He is the author of the Pentateuch, but not necessarily the rest. The scribes were the ones commissioned to write things down.
Maybe originally but it seems there is more then one author. I had to re-read the story of creation. In the first version God makes humans, both sexes, then we go back and he makes Adam and then he makes Eve. Seems like 2 diffrent stories.
One is in chronological order mentioning some pieces of creation in the order in which they came in time. The other gives an overview of some of the events. The second is not a chronological account. They are two completely different stories as is Psalm 104 and Job 38-40. The way to bring cohesion to this is to look at it like a treasure hunt or a jigsaw puzzle putting all the pieces together. When you do, it fits reality. If you take one portion and neglect the rest, it presents many contradictions to the truth.
The problem is all this tranlation and messing with the original texts. I think we lost some stuff that might have been important (at least today) but was taken out when they finnaly came to putting all the scriptures into the one book.
That is true. We know from the NT that Enoch's prophesy is missing. It must have been absolutely ancient. Only one line made it to the canonization. According to both John and Daniel there are things that they saw that God would not allow them to share. The ingenious part about the Bible is that it had to span every time period after it was written. So scientific facts that would be virtually impossible to understand, such as a microbe, are left out of the text. John says at the end of his gospel that if we were to write down everything Jesus did, the world couldn't contain all the books. That had to include the record of nature that He created. That tells me that there is a LOT left out. :-) The Bible is the sole source of spiritual truth.
For example, Hindus believe that we die and then come back as a bug or a rich man or anything in between. What does the Bible say about reincarnation? It says that it is appointed unto man to die once and then the judgment. So when we compare that truth against the Bible, it doesn't work. Not to mention that we all know now that the world will not last forever. So what happens to everyone once the world is gone? Where do they go then? Logic dictates once again that the Bible is true.
Vera
It really doesn't change. God doesn't change one iota
I'm not really saying God changed, but that the teaching changed. God didn't tell Abram that it was wrong to basically sell his wife, but later it is finally said it is. If I were to only read Genesis I would think it was ok to do such a thing, because God never says it was wrong until later. That's what I meant by 'everything changes'. That statement probably should have been 'everything becomes clearer.' We are given more details on what God really wants.
So what happens to everyone once the world is gone? Where do they go then? Logic dictates once again that the Bible is true.
I don't think Logic dictates the bible is true because people have to "go" somewhere when the earth is gone. :/ To me Logic dictates that humans will become extinct like many of the animals that have come before us. The Dinosaurs are extinct; Logic doesn't dictate to me that they 'went' somewhere. It dictates they all died and no longer exist. Faith might tell me we go somewhere, but I don't think 'logic' does.
Vera,
The Greek word clearly meant men.
So any man that has more estrogen in his body and is more 'effeminate' than usual is going to hell? I guess this also includes those born as hermaphrodites and children with gender identity disorder. Your 'logic' is an utter failure again.
Oh yeah, do you ever sin, Vera?
So any man that has more estrogen in his body and is more 'effeminate' than usual is going to hell? I guess this also includes those born as hermaphrodites and children with gender identity disorder. Your 'logic' is an utter failure again.
Oh yeah, do you ever sin, Vera?
I am free from sin, Leigh. It is one thing to be under the Law and not sin. It is another thing not to want to sin anymore and have the ability not to. That is what grace does in my life so that I do it naturally. That power comes from the Spirit of God and His Word.
Jesus said that there were people who were born eunuchs. Our bodies do not function perfectly because of sin that is in the world. We inherited a body of death from Adam, not sin. I think that is one of the reasons God hates sin so much. Children are so innocent of the world around them but are soon indoctrinated into the sin of this world through parents. The innocent always suffer because of sin.
These effeminate changes in men occur once they give into the sin. There is no doubt though that there is a change. It is not a congenital anomaly.
Vera
Leigh
You have stated repeatedly that claims of the bible are being proven as true by scientists. I have and others here have REPEATEDLY asked for this proof, but refuse to give it.
Right, which is why I have been working since 7AM to answer all your questions that have been sitting here for several days. :-P
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, Romans 1:18-22
Here's the thing about this passage. I bolded the two points that Paul makes here about what makes man without excuse. One is that God has manifest Himself to everyone through the conscience. You know right from wrong. You judge me. That is a function of the conscience and makes you unlike the animals because it is part of being created in the image of God. You judge presidential candidates. You judge the church. You judge your own group as good and right based on your own understanding. The second point is that God is clearly seen in the things that are made. Ray Comfort often makes the point that if you see a building, there must be a builder. Here is an example from Harvard University of the working of the inside of a single cell. This is what shows up in the fossil record perfectly formed. As I've already shared with you, it is becoming evident that life could not have originated here on this earth except through divine intervention.
http://www.studiodaily.com/main/technique/tprojects/6850.html
There is no evidence that anyone is going to get a 'new body', or that there id going to be any 'new earth', therefore your claim is pure speculation.
And God even says that. He says eye has not seen nor ear heard nor has entered into the heart of man what God has in store for those that love Him.
You do not know that hell is a real place without scientific proof that it is. You simply choose to believe that it is.
I know God through my spirit and His Word. God makes predictions in His Word. Did you know that? If you do this, this will happen. He also shares about the character of man and how he will react to certain things. He also promised to free me from sin and did. That is my biggest proof that happened to me personally. I know what my heart was like before and I know what it is like today. He has never let me down - ever.
You know what I find amazing is that the Pharisees are standing head to head with the Son of God and they don't know Him. They leave me in the dust with their fasting and prayer. I don't think that doing religious things gets us to know God. It is something else. It is listening and trusting and being humble that are part of how we get to know God. Knowing Him is what gets us into heaven. Sin separates us from knowing Him. You could fast till you're blue in the face but if you still entertain sin your heart, you don't know Him.
That's because you are trying to test them with your frail finite mind and abilities. How funny. Why don't you tell us what produced the big bang? What was before that? How did that occur? What brought it about? Please test that for us with peer reviewed scientific research that can prove your assertions.
We do not yet know what produced the big bang, however, scientists believe that the answer is closely related to string theory. We actually have real scientists working on this, not ones who start with the conclusion that a sky wizard did something and then look for biased 'evidence' that it's true.
This universe had a beginning. Part of the big bang model is a stretching out of the universe. The Bible said it first. Pretty good for goat herders if you ask me. They have been able to see back to the beginning through some sort of technology. It is complicated and I admit that physics is not my best subject. The point is that there was nothing here before there was something and the Bible declares that.
Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Then Psalm 104:2 Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:
Both of these fit big bang cosmology.
However, you are assuming that I believe the big bang actually happened. I have no idea what started the universe, and honestly, to me it doesn't matter. However,that doesn't mean a sky wizard did it.
Well, perhaps you need to do some more reading on this topic because the science has been establishing this for a while. You are speaking hypothetically and not through what is known.
Even psychology admits that there is an inner man. I know because I have been studying it in nursing and for the record, Freud copied it straight out of the Bible.
This is a complete non sequitur that does not answer my question, first of all, and second a lot of what Freud taught is no longer used in modern psychology. I don't particularly care about your claim that Freud plagiarized the bible, because Freud also had a lot of faults that made some of his psychology dubious at best.
I agree. Freud was a nut. But interestingly, in my nursing books they still hold to his Super Ego, Ego and ID. The Spirit, soul and body. Came straight out of the Bible.
I could so see you in the 18th and 19th century arguing for slavery. "That is strictly your opinion on slavery. You have no right to impose that opinion on the abolition of slavery on anyone else."
LOL !!! I am the one that has been advocating against slavery on your blog for 2 weeks and you now say you could see me advocating FOR it?? How stupid ARE you???
You are living in a day when slavery is no longer an issue. You are only seeing it from your narrow point of view. Had you been raised in that society, I guarantee you that you would be arguing for slavery because you would have insisted that the situation warranted it. You do it constantly with abortion, lesbianism and homosex.
Christians are the ones that brought over slaves from Africa. You can not get around that fact, Vera.
1 Cor. 6:9-11 clearly states that it is a deception to believe that a Christian sins. No person who is a believer steals men or women from their homes to be slaves. The Bible strictly condemns this in both the NT and the OT.
Christians kept slaves here in the States and used the bible to argue for keeping them.
ROFLOL. When are you going to get it through you thick brain that people can argue anything to rationalize and justify their sin even Heather has Two Mommies. IOW, you don't have to be a Christian to try and excuse sin. Oh, and btw, John Adams and his wife didn't own slaves. They had some servants but mostly she did the cooking and the cleaning. He also helped several slaves in legal matters.
Once again, it doesn't matter that Christians advocated to have them set free, when they started it int he first place and used the bible to advocate it.
How ridiculous, Leigh. Slavery has been around since the advent of sin. Hello.
Yes and babies started being murdered instead by the droves. The leading cause of death in America is murder - abortion
You completely skipped over my argument. When you are ready to go back and address it in full, let me know.
It is the leading cause of death in this country - bottom line.
Actually, it is exactly what you are saying. Since the mother wants to murder her child because she got caught with per proverbial pants down, now let's make the murder of the child an easy and safe thing for her.
Nooooooooo....that is not exactly what I was saying. You can keep claiming it is, but that doesn't make it true. NOT ALL WOMEN WHO HAVE ABORTIONS ARE 'CAUGHT WITH THEIR PANTS DOWN', VERA.
The majority are. Only about 1% comprise the rest.
But, to address the other half of your argument, you just caught yourself in your own web. Do you think that women who seek abortions deserve to die? A simple yes or nor no will do.
No. In the good ole days, folks made a decision - the baby or the mom. Sometimes they chose the baby.
So how have you evolved? What? Now you buy your goat at the Piggly Wiggly and that somehow makes you superior intellectually?
The fact that I have critical thinking skills, logic and a large does of skepticism and use them on a daily basis to challenge everything I believe makes me intellectually superior to you. It has nothing to do with where I shop. I also don't eat pork.
Good for you. I like skeptics. Nathaniel was a skeptic.
I have heard secular anthropologists say that the men of 10,000 years ago had the some cognizant abilities and abstract thinking that we possess today without the data base of knowledge. The remarkable thing is that they wrote those things without the means to test them and they match reality.
Anddddddddd here we go again. WHICH 'things' in the bible 'match reality'?
In this case, from the very beginning, man demonstrates that he is created in the image of God.
The difference between you and most Christians is that you take responsibility for your actions. But even still that doesn't make you good enough compared to a Holy God. Only through the blood of Jesus can you receive that pardon for sin.
I am not in the least concerned about being good enough for your friend that lives in your head.
You aren't good enough, that's the point and be assured, just because He hasn't up till this point, taken the time to reach out to you doesn't make Him not real. It is your pride that is in the way. Don't let your skepticism get in the way of knowing your Creator. The two are not at odds. God wants you to test and study and not buy into everything.
Proverbs 14:15 says this, "The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going.
Can you tell me more of your story? How and why did you walk away from the church? It might help me help you.
I walked away from Christianity after years of struggle with the fact that it makes no sense and is illogical. This was not something that I woke up one morning and decided might be fun. I learned to think logically and critically and applied those thinking skills to my religion and saw that it made no sense. There's a LOT more to it than that, but that's a small nutshell. I also started to read tons of books about comparative religion and science. I also was an extremely devout Christian who prayed and fasted, truly believed that Jesus was the only way to heaven and that since I was saved I was going there, and I also tried to convert others. I saw the 'hand of God' in every single tiny instance of my life. I was not a middle of the road wishy-washy/Christmas and Easter only type. I felt incredibly deceived when I learned to think and started reading books about textural criticism of the bible. I realized that I had been lied to. Yes, I was lied to by well meaning people, but I was lied to nonetheless.
LOL! Vera, you are not going to talk me back into believing the mythology of Christianity. I'd love to see you try, but it won't work.
Can you be more specific? Thanks for sharing this, btw. It has taken me several posts to get to this one point. What did you feel was the one thing that contradicted what you believed? Were you also reading Heather has Two Mommies to your students at this time? Did you believe that abortion was more logical than abstinence and righteous living? Did you know God back then? When you fasted, did you feel His presence? Did you read the Word daily?
I can't do anything and you know that.
Vera
IC
One confusion about Scripture is the lives and decisions of those of the OT, which are clearly not the kind of lives we would consider righteous. These people were the means to bring the Messiah to this Earth through Jesus. But they were often led of their flesh and were only kept in check through a severe Law that had strict boundaries. Abraham did not have the Law when he made the choice to give Sarah to the king. God didn't tell him to do that. God had to actually fix the situation by putting a fire under Abimelech who came dangerously close to defiling Sarah. It was a really bad decision. I am just telling you that because you have to be careful to observe when God is intervening and when men make decisions. We are beings with freewill choice. We can choose. God doesn't control us. He allows us that ability to choose.
The difference between now and then is that Jesus died on the cross for us so that His Spirit could live in our hearts so that the Father can transform us into the image of His Son. That is what grace is. It is His divine nature given to us to be freed from sin. We are no longer under that Law to be righteous. We now have His Spirit with us all the time to help us and guide us. What is amazing is that we don't hardly even realize that we are choosing right until it is in our past.
One major problem today is that the church is not doing what it's supposed to be doing. So there is a lot of teaching that doesn't match the Bible. It is a mixture of fluffy sugary stuff to get people to come to church.
But God is faithful to reserve Himself a people who have not bowed the knee to Baal.
Vera
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