We travel around the US with a team of men and women targeting places where we know we'll find sinners. We knew we would find some church going Christians but what we found was shocking. It wasn't the heathen at these wicked evil events. It was the entire church! Please pray for us as we go out to go find those that have gone astray.
I really liked sharing with you guys. So I'm hoping against hope that there has been a change of heart and that he will allow things to go back to the way they were.
Well I am going to take a break I think at least for a few weeks. It honestly shocks me, though perhaps it shouldn't have, that Ray can lie, and not a single Theist on the blog has a problem with it.
Ray doesn't even try to justify it. His response is "So, you're an Atheist".
As if somehow deflecting makes the lie true.
No one grasps the idea that "Lies are bad" and "Ray is lying" are 2 seperate concepts.
You can discuss morals and the origin of them as much as you like. But that's an entirely different issue to 'Did Ray Lie?'
But all you get from the theists are posts like "Who are they to talk about lies?" "Atheists have no morals!" "I will enjoy heaven without you" "Good going Ray!"
I'm shocked, I really am at this attitude. Ray can say whatever he likes and not a single theist will hold him accountable.
I would hold him accountable for lying and I would tell him to his face. However, a difference in opinion is not lying. For example, I know you are dead wrong about God being real. But I don't think that makes you a liar. I think you sincerely believe you are right. Deception is not knowingly lying even though the deception is a lie. That is the problem with deception. You aren't aware that it is a deception because you're deceived.
Paul spoke about teachings that can be like this in 1 Cor 3. He distinguished this in two categories - wood, hay and stubble and gold, silver and precious stones. Note that this is not concerning sin issues because he goes on to say that it is a deception to think you can sin and be saved within the same letter. (1 Cor. 6:9-11) He is specifically talking about teaching that is off. See my avatar. That is what happens when your truth is nudged just a little off course. In the end, you end up completely missing the target. This is the definition of sin - missing the mark.
When Ray wrote that Richard Dawkins believes we come from aliens it was a 100% verifiable lie. He then badly quotes Dawkins from Expelled trying to prove dawkins said something like it and failed. to do that he had to cut about 1 minute of film time from the middle of his quote. Even then it didn't say what he was trying to make it say.
I understood the comment RD made. Dawkins was speculating not stating a fact. I understood it when he said it and I understood it when Ray brought it back up. However, the point was that RD never proposes that God Almighty could have created the earth, which was the irony.
I personally believe that where God specifically intervenes in the creation account that it is obvious that there is intervention. The way this universe is set up, it can be tested and I think that aspect is done on purpose so that we can understand how things progressed. But yes, it is crystal clear that there are natural processes that simply work. I am not sure you are aware of this but, everyone agrees with this even Ray.
Believe it or not, these truths have important implications to how we see God. For example, did animals die before Adam and Eve sinned? I believe they did. I believe that is where the truth leads us. God wanted His invisible attributes to be clearly seen in the things that are made and to me, these things can tell us a great deal about who God is. I am not sure you are one of these but often I hear young people who critique God for giving severe justice to the Amalekites. Their bottom line argument is usually something like this, "How can a benevolent God be this way?" It is an excellent question because it shows that God isn't "benevolent." He is merciful and just. He is terrifying, which is clearly seen in the things that are made.
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8 comments:
So Ray has forgiven your evil evolutionist ways then?
I really liked sharing with you guys. So I'm hoping against hope that there has been a change of heart and that he will allow things to go back to the way they were.
Vera
Well I am going to take a break I think at least for a few weeks. It honestly shocks me, though perhaps it shouldn't have, that Ray can lie, and not a single Theist on the blog has a problem with it.
Ray doesn't even try to justify it. His response is "So, you're an Atheist".
As if somehow deflecting makes the lie true.
No one grasps the idea that "Lies are bad" and "Ray is lying" are 2 seperate concepts.
You can discuss morals and the origin of them as much as you like. But that's an entirely different issue to 'Did Ray Lie?'
But all you get from the theists are posts like
"Who are they to talk about lies?"
"Atheists have no morals!"
"I will enjoy heaven without you"
"Good going Ray!"
I'm shocked, I really am at this attitude. Ray can say whatever he likes and not a single theist will hold him accountable.
I would hold him accountable for lying and I would tell him to his face. However, a difference in opinion is not lying. For example, I know you are dead wrong about God being real. But I don't think that makes you a liar. I think you sincerely believe you are right. Deception is not knowingly lying even though the deception is a lie. That is the problem with deception. You aren't aware that it is a deception because you're deceived.
Paul spoke about teachings that can be like this in 1 Cor 3. He distinguished this in two categories - wood, hay and stubble and gold, silver and precious stones. Note that this is not concerning sin issues because he goes on to say that it is a deception to think you can sin and be saved within the same letter. (1 Cor. 6:9-11) He is specifically talking about teaching that is off. See my avatar. That is what happens when your truth is nudged just a little off course. In the end, you end up completely missing the target. This is the definition of sin - missing the mark.
Vera
It's not about a difference of opinion.
When Ray wrote that Richard Dawkins believes we come from aliens it was a 100% verifiable lie. He then badly quotes Dawkins from Expelled trying to prove dawkins said something like it and failed. to do that he had to cut about 1 minute of film time from the middle of his quote. Even then it didn't say what he was trying to make it say.
I understood the comment RD made. Dawkins was speculating not stating a fact. I understood it when he said it and I understood it when Ray brought it back up. However, the point was that RD never proposes that God Almighty could have created the earth, which was the irony.
Vera
Right that is what Ray has to ignore, is that he was asked a specific question and he is speculating about how Intelligent Design could be true.
He explicitly then states that the Designer would still have to have come about in a naturalistic fashion.
Note that the comment from Ben Stein after that is a voiceover and not something Dawkins got a chance to respond to.
BathTub
I personally believe that where God specifically intervenes in the creation account that it is obvious that there is intervention. The way this universe is set up, it can be tested and I think that aspect is done on purpose so that we can understand how things progressed. But yes, it is crystal clear that there are natural processes that simply work. I am not sure you are aware of this but, everyone agrees with this even Ray.
Believe it or not, these truths have important implications to how we see God. For example, did animals die before Adam and Eve sinned? I believe they did. I believe that is where the truth leads us. God wanted His invisible attributes to be clearly seen in the things that are made and to me, these things can tell us a great deal about who God is. I am not sure you are one of these but often I hear young people who critique God for giving severe justice to the Amalekites. Their bottom line argument is usually something like this, "How can a benevolent God be this way?" It is an excellent question because it shows that God isn't "benevolent." He is merciful and just. He is terrifying, which is clearly seen in the things that are made.
Vera
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