We travel around the US with a team of men and women targeting places where we know we'll find sinners. We knew we would find some church going Christians but what we found was shocking. It wasn't the heathen at these wicked evil events. It was the entire church! Please pray for us as we go out to go find those that have gone astray.
Why are you still hanging out at RTB? All the other Christians are over at the Discovery Institute.
You see, you guys have to maintain a charade that your interest isn't overtly sectarian or you'll run afoul of the 1st amendment. OEC is overtly Biblical, which means it's unconstitutional to try and insert OE/YE creationism into the public school curricula--which is what you're really after. Intelligent Design OTOH purports to be entirely secular; an honest-to-god scientific program. Of course, it isn't and the Disco Inst. is lying--ask them all the results and breakthroughs and cures and products flowing from their scientific 'revolution' and you'll see what I mean. Nothing.
Intelligent design isn't science. It's marketing. It's catchphrases and little more in support of a religious agenda. It doesn't explain anything. It's culture wars and that's all.
As an idea and a movement, ID got it's ass handed to it by the godless ACLU in Dover, PA. Richly deserved it was too, and for all to see.
I wish I could find an icon of ACLU to put on my blog as my avatar. hee hee. At least you admit that this is part of your religion.
Atheism is religion. It addresses religious beliefs and attacks them. The ACLU managed to get its little claws in the classroom like pork on a democratic bill.
The whole thing should have simply been about the latest scientific evidence, not about removing Christianity from schools. It was an obvious attack on Christianity. Now we have an epidemic of young people that are lost, confused, sinning up a storm, and full of perversion. I have a son who connected with these young people. We homeschool and tried to keep our children separated from them but it was practically impossible. We have since learned a different approach to handling the young people around us. At any rate, I spent some time at the juvenile court. I was never there when that place wasn't packed with people. NEVER. I mean afternoon sessions, morning sessions, any day of the week we were overwhelmed with trying to find a parking spot and with wall to wall people. They have to abide by the same atheistic rules as everyone else so that Christianity is left out of the recovery process. No religion allowed. So the kids never come to terms with their sin or their relationship to God. The music they listen to such as Marilyn Manson and other such demoniacs furthers them down this path. They are disrespectful of all authority. I saw kids in there that were sometimes ten years old without any adult supervision. It was pathetic and no hope thanks to the atheist movement.
Through much prayer, my son has come out of this. I thank God for that. He has regained his walk with the Lord and he has been walking free from sin now for a while. He had to come to realize that the path he was on was going to lead him to a really bad life. He actually saw that once he became an adult and not before he dragged us through the mud. The first step he took in dragging us down this path was when he started hanging out with our public schooled neighbors who had no fear of God.
I don't ever remember any teacher back in my day trying to share their faith with us. They always stuck to the material they were teaching. We had a silent word of prayer but nobody spoke aloud and prayed a specific prayer according to their belief system. We were all allowed to pray the way we chose.
It is not right that one person's religious views should prevail over everyone else's. And that is what atheism did. They used an excerpt from a letter and science to force their agenda on everyone else because they were "offended." Since when does one person's religious views have to be put on everyone else? That is religious discrimination. If they didn't want to pray, they didn't have to pray but that shouldn't have been the case for everyone else. There was nothing wrong with putting God first for the students that wanted to put Him first.
I went for a job interview the other day. And came with excellent credentials, a perfect record, and about 6 excellent references from the hospital I was applying to including someone on the board of directors. Every question I was asked was designed to find out where I stood on my convictions and beliefs without coming right out and saying, "Are you tolerant?" I flunked the interview. In retrospect, I realized that it was these particular questions that I didn't answer in the way they were expecting me to answer. I didn't answer in the politically correct way. I remember Dale saying the same thing that he has a way of asking questions to determine if he's speaking to a Christian and won't hire them if he finds out that they are. The questions profile in such a way that you aren't asked overt questions like, "Are you a Christian?" They are things like, "What do you do if you disagree with someone's lifestyle?" I wasn't asked one question about my qualifications to do the job.
Science should not lead people away from God by leaving out pertinent details concerning the record of nature. That is what I am most concerned about. There isn't one public schooled child that I know of that is walking with God in holiness. 100% of them are sinning and indifferent toward God because of the atmosphere of the public school. Even the kids that consider themselves Christians are joining in to start sinning.
The schools shouldn't share an atheistic creation scenario that declares there is no God and nothing within science that points to God. I have proven over and over that this is not the case. Those types of statements are still religious statements even if they are negative. It forces one group's religious beliefs on the rest and has proven deleterious to the morality of everyone.
Analogously, if the criteria expressly forbids math in the classroom, negative 1 is still a number. Negative religion is religion and your kind has forced it on our children and we are in a mess thanks to what has happened. We spend hours trying to share with the ones who call themselves Christians that the message of salvation is one of freedom from sin. It is so difficult.
I thank God for RTB. I do like them. I think they have done an excellent job of highlighting scientific evidence that is in harmony with the Bible. Theistic evolution, which is what the discovery institute proposes, is strictly from a multi-religious point of view encompassing all religions. RTB and I, both, are interested in leading people to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. We make no apologies for doing so. They are extremely up-front about that agenda.
This one question seemed to be insidiously asking me about my religious and political views without coming right out and saying so: "If you disagree with someone about their lifestyle choices, how do you handle the situation?" I tried to say things like I would mind my own business and steer clear of those topics. She kept pressuring me for a different answer. See, that isn't the politically correct answer to that question. The right answer would have been that I am tolerant of everyone, what they do and how they believe and that everyone should do whatever it is that makes them the happiest. That would have been a lie from my perspective.
This question was the most obvious one of the bunch. Some were not profiling at all but still had to do with my personal perceptions. My opinion on those things is directly related to my religious views, as you know. :-) Actually, I felt I didn't answer that question honestly because if I were asked to comment on those things and give my honest opinion, these days, I probably would tell them what I think. That is not the politically correct answer. I know they were specifically looking for the word "tolerant." This cultural paradigm is not even in line with the founders of the nursing profession who were people of conviction and God fearing. I guarantee you that Florence Nightingale would not have given them the answer they were anticipating.
I was also asked what I would do if I made an error? I now recognize through a course study that I had to take what the answer to that question would have been. I had no idea what answer they were looking for at the time. Can you think of a situation from your past where you disagreed with a decision a leader made and how you handled it?
The first one though was the one that I felt was the one that was profiling me.
I found your reaction to the Dover case interesting:
The whole thing should have simply been about the latest scientific evidence, not about removing Christianity from schools. It was an obvious attack on Christianity.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Your view of the proper role of the public schools is that they should be little more than taxpayer supported sunday schools. If Christians want to insert their religion into the public school curricula and are not allowed to do so, then Christians are being persecuted. You feel you have a constitutional right to force your religion onto everybody else's kids in the public schools. We atheists can't do it. Muslims can't do it. But Christians? Why, of course Christians should be allowed to re-write the public school curricula because God told you to, and let's face it: The real reason for education is to turn people into Christians, like there's nothing else worth learning but the Bible!
Let's face it, Vera--You Christians want to turn the country into a theocracy. That's what makes Christians dangerous.
Now, now, CH. I didn't say any of that. I'm sure it is difficult to read everything I send to Ray's list, but I did talk about this and it did not reflect what you just said here. What I said was that I think a silent word of prayer for those who want to is acceptable. I don't see the problem. It isn't preaching. I don't ever remember anyone asking me what God I had just prayed to. I don't remember anyone questioning any of the people in our classroom as to whether they were actually praying or not. So I don't see how this could possibly be pushing a religious agenda.
For many years now the atheist's religious views have been predominant in our schools. It is a travesty. Any comment against Christianity can be made. Any anti-Christian statement can be made. But let someone share a positive Christian message in the school system and watch how fast they are fired.
I fully disagree with teaching religion in the public school. There is too much pluralism in our ps for that to take place. It would be mayhem trying to make everyone happy. The Catholics would be offended for not being represented as THE church. There are so many possible problems none of which could turn out well. I never saw anything like that in school before the Dover trials, so I don't think it is a problem or ever was a problem.
For many years now the atheist's religious views have been predominant in our schools. It is a travesty. Any comment against Christianity can be made. Any anti-Christian statement can be made. But let someone share a positive Christian message in the school system and watch how fast they are fired.
~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm not aware of anybody teaching atheism in the public schools, at least below university level. I have, however, heard of public school teachers trying to sneak creationism or intelligent design (stealth creationism) into their classrooms. In fact, the Dover case I referred to was an example of Christians on a school board tying to sneak intelligent design into their public school science classes, with predictable results. I don't feel sorry for them; they got what they deserved.
Keep your religion out of public schools, and in this case "you" means everybody.
Keep your religion out of public schools, and in this case "you" means everybody.
By removing all religion from ps, you are promoting atheism. It is a totally Godless curriculum that supports your worldview and dismisses every other worldview.
Nobody should be expelled for sharing the evidence that points to intelligence. There is plenty of it. Nor should anyone be expelled for sharing some of the problems with the naturalistic evolutionary paradigm. All evidence should be brought to the table. As long as there is a scientific model and there is evidence to support the model, that is something worth checking into. Your religious views should not prevail over everyone else's. It is exactly what our founding fathers worked hard to keep from happening - one group's religious beliefs predominating all others.
I did not approve of everything Ben Stein did in his movie but I did appreciate the bottom-line point that other models are not allowed.
I have been working for several days on studying for this nursing exam. Amazingly, this institution begun by a Christian has lost its Christian roots in favor of this atheistic worldview. Thankfully, in practice many do not adhere to it.
The movie was How the Earth was Made by the History Channel. It was on iTunes for $1.99. Since dale mentioned it, I thought I would use it for homeschool.
It is amusing, but these shows just can't help but throw a jab at Christianity. They do it every single time. They show their real agenda.
" I remember Dale saying the same thing that he has a way of asking questions to determine if he's speaking to a Christian and won't hire them if he finds out that they are. "
No, I never ask or try to find out anyone's religion. I said that if in an interview someone pipes up and tell me they will pray for the wisdom to make a proper decision, I am not going to suppose that they have enough confidence to make a proper decision.
Vera, It is all about value systems. I respect people's value systems, but organisations have value systems too.
If I am going to place someone in a "sensitive" position, I just cannot be confident that they will look out for the values of the organization if they are going to appeal to supernatural entities. They need to have the skill sets to perform the job.
Anyhoo, I just hope all works out for you. I am kinda argued out for now and have some other stresses to deal with.
Anyhoo, I just hope all works out for you. I am kinda argued out for now and have some other stresses to deal with.
I will pray for you.
Prayer is not what you think it is for most of us. Every person is unique. If I have a friend and you have the same friend, our relationship to that person will probably be different. The friend may even find it challenging to have us both in the same room especially if we are both close friends with this one person.
I think prayer is the same way. People communicate to God in their own unique ways. You discover that, when you pray together with someone. There is a balance in all things. Those who disregard the natural world and reality in favor of the supernatural-only miss the mark and those who dismiss God for the natural-only miss the mark. We live in a natural world with an unseen supernatural God.
What God does is to bring about circumstances that are timely and beyond what we could have predicted. It will be a natural thing that happens that is unexpected. I am going to pray for you. Look for God to move in the situation.
Your kid got in with the wrong crowd and that's because mandatory teacher-led prayer was ruled unconstitutional -- forty years ago?
It seems that the "wrong crowd" anymore is the norm. The youth today are indifferent toward God and His holy standards. They have no fear of God whatsoever. Even the ones who call themselves "Christians."
Um, Vera, about those kids, let me 'splain sumpin' to you:
You go to their hangouts for the express purpose of informing them that they're destined for eternal torture. I think if you arrived on my doorstep with such a message then you really shouldn't be surprised if I respond by getting allupinyerface.
And that's because mandatory teacher-led prayer was ruled unconstitutional forty years ago?
Not just that but the atheist agenda taking over our public schools. It was the removal of prayer and respect toward God, the removal of any mention of Him from textbooks where He clearly intervened, and the removal of the Bible as a standard. You don't have to read it or take a class in it for it to have an effect on the people. I was never offered a class in Bible nor did any teacher ever teach from it. The only thing that should have been done through those evolution trials is for science to be allowed to test and know things as a separate jurisdiction...period.
The youth of today are indifferent toward God and His holy standard. Many of them mock God and blaspheme His holy name. They fornicate and worse. Many of them do drugs. Some get addicted to the drugs. Others don't. Some get STD and pregnant and some don't. They dress seductively. And worse of all, they murder their sons and daughters. They are rebellious toward their parents. And then accuse the parents of being horrible for reacting to their rebellion. They use the foulest language imaginable. Check out any ps in our nation or take a week and travel down to your local juvenile court house.
We see them in our neighborhood. We meet them by the droves out in the streets. The girls lift up their tops to our preachers and show them their breasts to be as gross and nasty as they can. The guys gyrate in front of them. The stench of beer and puke is in the air. That is what the ps is pumping out: youth without the fear of God and no moral compass. No matter where we go, we meet them by the thousands, not just one or two. You could count the ones who are walking uprightly on one hand.
My son, just on an academic level, is top of his class in math after being home schooled by me. He always aces his tests while the rest of the class doesn't have a clue. My other son was the same way. Last week my son made 100 on his test. The majority of the class failed.
You know what's semi-discouraging about that is that it is very difficult for our children to find someone who is upright. Someone who will wait until they get married to have sex. Someone who doesn't drink alcohol or do drugs. Someone who would never kill their son or daughter. Someone who loves God with all their hearts. Thank God though because we have met them. My daughter lives a thousand of miles away from me in Ohio but she does have a great guy.
As for "finding someone upright," I daresay that's what many people look for in a relationship.
But there are other strategies for finding a suitable friend or mate. For instance, there's "finding someone decent and learning to appreciate them for who they are even though they disagree with me."
The late William Buckley, one of the founders of the modern conservative movement in America, was a devout Roman Catholic, old-school style. His wife Patricia was some variety of Protestant, I think. Their son, Christopher, has been an atheist for all of his adult life.
Bill founded a magazine that I read off-and-on for years, National Review, and wrote for it regularly until his retirement. (It's hardly worth picking up since his departure.) He didn't often mention his family but when he did, it was abundantly clear that he adored them, and they him.
"....The only thing that should have been done through those evolution trials is for science to be allowed to test and know things as a separate jurisdiction....."
As usual, not sure exactly what you mean. However:
There's a dramatized transcript of portions of the Dover trial which you can watch on PBS. It shows that that's exactly what the scientists did: They explained what they knew about evolution to Judge Jones. They also showed him evidence that the Dover school board was purposely (if sneakily) promoting the teaching of a religious belief -- creationism -- in science class. Judge Jones knew this is illegal and that's why he ruled against it.
I don't know any more law or jurisprudence than you, Vera, but I understand this. Why don't you?
As for your son's math scores, that's great news, and reason to be proud. Seriously. Math means money, so if he likes math then there's a good chance that he may be well employed in future. (Let's hope we still have an economy when he grows up.)
However, the fact that public schools have trouble getting math concepts across to a majority of their students has nothing to do with religion. Besides, Vera, if public schools are so inept with basic algebra, do you seriously expect them to get theology straight?!
I agree with this. We reap what we sow. This is what atheism has brought to our youth. Atheism came to the ps as a tag along to the problems with science. As I said already, science should have been declared its own jurisdiction. But science was used by atheists to remove Christianity from the schools altogether so that no mention of God was allowed unless it is a negative comment. This not only removed freedom of speech from those who wished to share their faith with others but it also was the catalyst that has led our children into darkness. Why did one sect's religious views take precedence over everyone else? This was the very thing our founding fathers tried to avert.
There's a dramatized transcript of portions of the Dover trial which you can watch on PBS. It shows that that's exactly what the scientists did: They explained what they knew about evolution to Judge Jones. They also showed him evidence that the Dover school board was purposely (if sneakily) promoting the teaching of a religious belief -- creationism -- in science class. Judge Jones knew this is illegal and that's why he ruled against it.
Actually, if there is a proof in a model, it can be taught. What they object to is pseudo-science. Hugh Ross and RTB have a model that uses the science exactly as it is and the Bible to show that their model fits what is known. Where God obviously intervened, they point this out. I like their approach. They take the known world to unlock what Scripture is saying. The church fathers of old knew that they didn't know what the age of the earth was. They knew they were speculating but did say that the earth could possibly be old per what they were reading. The Bible should never have been promoted as a science book. Science should not have been made to fit someone's interpretation of the Scriptures knowing that the Bible doesn't teach every piece of scientific evidence. The Bible clearly states this.
The Christians retaliated to the attack the best way they knew by upholding their beliefs. It wasn't as though we, as average citizens, could verify what was being shared. All we knew was that our faith was being attacked through science. We didn't come to God on the basis of science as our truth but repentance and reconciliation. That is the part that you keep sidestepping, weemaryanne. If you are still in sin, you aren't getting in. We saw the domino effect where our children were led further and further down a dark path of sin. It is science that is being used to falsify Christianity. Now here's the kicker. The Bible harmonizes with science when you allow the known world to unlock it.
For example, look at Genesis 1:1-2 1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
I have heard several people share on these two verses. Some would say that there was a world before our world. It is kind of obvious that time elapses between 1 and 2. Although from the YEC perspective, they hold that no time passes. I have watched and read secular science on these issues. They all agree that the heavens and the earth were created ex nihilo. It is not a static universe. There was a beginning. That is a fact. It occurred approximately 14 billion years ago. That isn't too long ago if you consider those numbers in comparison to infinity.
Dale had me listen to this film from PBS called How the Earth was Made. What is so totally cool is that the secular scientists describe the initial conditions of the earth and they match vs. 2 to the letter. The earth is void of life, there is no land, and it is a water world. These scientists have no idea how all this water got here and why it didn't evaporate out into space. We may discover that in the future. All I'm saying is that the truth matches what Moses wrote down and that long before there was any science to prove this.
Um, Vera, about those kids, let me 'splain sumpin' to you:
You go to their hangouts for the express purpose of informing them that they're destined for eternal torture. I think if you arrived on my doorstep with such a message then you really shouldn't be surprised if I respond by getting allupinyerface.
Now let me splain sumpin to you. They are lifting their tops and exposing their breasts whether we're there or not. There are live shows in New Orleans where people get up on stage and have live sex shows. There is pornography everywhere. They act like they act because that's the way they act.
You don't get to pick your conclusion first and then seek out "facts" to support it, Vera. That's not science.
Science is not the only basis in truth. I am studying all these nursing books and let me tell you, the science of this relies a great deal on something that one cannot prove - feelings. Everything is about feelings. Gaining people's trust through identity with their feelings in a HUGE part of the nursing process even when common sense would dictate not to identify with their feelings.
The Word of God is equal to science because they are both from the same Source. They both display the same kind of pattern or signature.
Keep hittin' the books, Vera. No amount of feeling or prayer will save a patient if you don't figure out how to interpret an ECG.
That is only partially true from the perspective of the nursing process. Many disease processes overlap and can appear to be the exact same thing except for one difference. That difference may rely upon the patient's "feelings" or state of being ie confusion. It is a very demanding test.
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29 comments:
Vera--
Why are you still hanging out at RTB? All the other Christians are over at the Discovery Institute.
You see, you guys have to maintain a charade that your interest isn't overtly sectarian or you'll run afoul of the 1st amendment. OEC is overtly Biblical, which means it's unconstitutional to try and insert OE/YE creationism into the public school curricula--which is what you're really after. Intelligent Design OTOH purports to be entirely secular; an honest-to-god scientific program. Of course, it isn't and the Disco Inst. is lying--ask them all the results and breakthroughs and cures and products flowing from their scientific 'revolution' and you'll see what I mean. Nothing.
Intelligent design isn't science. It's marketing. It's catchphrases and little more in support of a religious agenda. It doesn't explain anything. It's culture wars and that's all.
As an idea and a movement, ID got it's ass handed to it by the godless ACLU in Dover, PA. Richly deserved it was too, and for all to see.
I wish I could find an icon of ACLU to put on my blog as my avatar. hee hee. At least you admit that this is part of your religion.
Atheism is religion. It addresses religious beliefs and attacks them. The ACLU managed to get its little claws in the classroom like pork on a democratic bill.
The whole thing should have simply been about the latest scientific evidence, not about removing Christianity from schools. It was an obvious attack on Christianity. Now we have an epidemic of young people that are lost, confused, sinning up a storm, and full of perversion. I have a son who connected with these young people. We homeschool and tried to keep our children separated from them but it was practically impossible. We have since learned a different approach to handling the young people around us. At any rate, I spent some time at the juvenile court. I was never there when that place wasn't packed with people. NEVER. I mean afternoon sessions, morning sessions, any day of the week we were overwhelmed with trying to find a parking spot and with wall to wall people. They have to abide by the same atheistic rules as everyone else so that Christianity is left out of the recovery process. No religion allowed. So the kids never come to terms with their sin or their relationship to God. The music they listen to such as Marilyn Manson and other such demoniacs furthers them down this path. They are disrespectful of all authority. I saw kids in there that were sometimes ten years old without any adult supervision. It was pathetic and no hope thanks to the atheist movement.
Through much prayer, my son has come out of this. I thank God for that. He has regained his walk with the Lord and he has been walking free from sin now for a while. He had to come to realize that the path he was on was going to lead him to a really bad life. He actually saw that once he became an adult and not before he dragged us through the mud. The first step he took in dragging us down this path was when he started hanging out with our public schooled neighbors who had no fear of God.
I don't ever remember any teacher back in my day trying to share their faith with us. They always stuck to the material they were teaching. We had a silent word of prayer but nobody spoke aloud and prayed a specific prayer according to their belief system. We were all allowed to pray the way we chose.
It is not right that one person's religious views should prevail over everyone else's. And that is what atheism did. They used an excerpt from a letter and science to force their agenda on everyone else because they were "offended." Since when does one person's religious views have to be put on everyone else? That is religious discrimination. If they didn't want to pray, they didn't have to pray but that shouldn't have been the case for everyone else. There was nothing wrong with putting God first for the students that wanted to put Him first.
I went for a job interview the other day. And came with excellent credentials, a perfect record, and about 6 excellent references from the hospital I was applying to including someone on the board of directors. Every question I was asked was designed to find out where I stood on my convictions and beliefs without coming right out and saying, "Are you tolerant?" I flunked the interview. In retrospect, I realized that it was these particular questions that I didn't answer in the way they were expecting me to answer. I didn't answer in the politically correct way. I remember Dale saying the same thing that he has a way of asking questions to determine if he's speaking to a Christian and won't hire them if he finds out that they are. The questions profile in such a way that you aren't asked overt questions like, "Are you a Christian?" They are things like, "What do you do if you disagree with someone's lifestyle?" I wasn't asked one question about my qualifications to do the job.
Science should not lead people away from God by leaving out pertinent details concerning the record of nature. That is what I am most concerned about. There isn't one public schooled child that I know of that is walking with God in holiness. 100% of them are sinning and indifferent toward God because of the atmosphere of the public school. Even the kids that consider themselves Christians are joining in to start sinning.
The schools shouldn't share an atheistic creation scenario that declares there is no God and nothing within science that points to God. I have proven over and over that this is not the case. Those types of statements are still religious statements even if they are negative. It forces one group's religious beliefs on the rest and has proven deleterious to the morality of everyone.
Analogously, if the criteria expressly forbids math in the classroom, negative 1 is still a number. Negative religion is religion and your kind has forced it on our children and we are in a mess thanks to what has happened. We spend hours trying to share with the ones who call themselves Christians that the message of salvation is one of freedom from sin. It is so difficult.
I thank God for RTB. I do like them. I think they have done an excellent job of highlighting scientific evidence that is in harmony with the Bible. Theistic evolution, which is what the discovery institute proposes, is strictly from a multi-religious point of view encompassing all religions. RTB and I, both, are interested in leading people to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. We make no apologies for doing so. They are extremely up-front about that agenda.
Vera
Vera, can you give some examples of what the questions were and what your answers were? I am curious to know.
Sarah
This one question seemed to be insidiously asking me about my religious and political views without coming right out and saying so: "If you disagree with someone about their lifestyle choices, how do you handle the situation?" I tried to say things like I would mind my own business and steer clear of those topics. She kept pressuring me for a different answer. See, that isn't the politically correct answer to that question. The right answer would have been that I am tolerant of everyone, what they do and how they believe and that everyone should do whatever it is that makes them the happiest. That would have been a lie from my perspective.
This question was the most obvious one of the bunch. Some were not profiling at all but still had to do with my personal perceptions. My opinion on those things is directly related to my religious views, as you know. :-) Actually, I felt I didn't answer that question honestly because if I were asked to comment on those things and give my honest opinion, these days, I probably would tell them what I think. That is not the politically correct answer. I know they were specifically looking for the word "tolerant." This cultural paradigm is not even in line with the founders of the nursing profession who were people of conviction and God fearing. I guarantee you that Florence Nightingale would not have given them the answer they were anticipating.
I was also asked what I would do if I made an error? I now recognize through a course study that I had to take what the answer to that question would have been. I had no idea what answer they were looking for at the time. Can you think of a situation from your past where you disagreed with a decision a leader made and how you handled it?
The first one though was the one that I felt was the one that was profiling me.
Vera
Vera--
I found your reaction to the Dover case interesting:
The whole thing should have simply been about the latest scientific evidence, not about removing Christianity from schools. It was an obvious attack on Christianity.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Your view of the proper role of the public schools is that they should be little more than taxpayer supported sunday schools. If Christians want to insert their religion into the public school curricula and are not allowed to do so, then Christians are being persecuted. You feel you have a constitutional right to force your religion onto everybody else's kids in the public schools. We atheists can't do it. Muslims can't do it. But Christians? Why, of course Christians should be allowed to re-write the public school curricula because God told you to, and let's face it: The real reason for education is to turn people into Christians, like there's nothing else worth learning but the Bible!
Let's face it, Vera--You Christians want to turn the country into a theocracy. That's what makes Christians dangerous.
Now, now, CH. I didn't say any of that. I'm sure it is difficult to read everything I send to Ray's list, but I did talk about this and it did not reflect what you just said here. What I said was that I think a silent word of prayer for those who want to is acceptable. I don't see the problem. It isn't preaching. I don't ever remember anyone asking me what God I had just prayed to. I don't remember anyone questioning any of the people in our classroom as to whether they were actually praying or not. So I don't see how this could possibly be pushing a religious agenda.
For many years now the atheist's religious views have been predominant in our schools. It is a travesty. Any comment against Christianity can be made. Any anti-Christian statement can be made. But let someone share a positive Christian message in the school system and watch how fast they are fired.
I fully disagree with teaching religion in the public school. There is too much pluralism in our ps for that to take place. It would be mayhem trying to make everyone happy. The Catholics would be offended for not being represented as THE church. There are so many possible problems none of which could turn out well. I never saw anything like that in school before the Dover trials, so I don't think it is a problem or ever was a problem.
Did you see my post on the movie dale suggested?
Vera
@Vera--
For many years now the atheist's religious views have been predominant in our schools. It is a travesty. Any comment against Christianity can be made. Any anti-Christian statement can be made. But let someone share a positive Christian message in the school system and watch how fast they are fired.
~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm not aware of anybody teaching atheism in the public schools, at least below university level. I have, however, heard of public school teachers trying to sneak creationism or intelligent design (stealth creationism) into their classrooms. In fact, the Dover case I referred to was an example of Christians on a school board tying to sneak intelligent design into their public school science classes, with predictable results. I don't feel sorry for them; they got what they deserved.
Keep your religion out of public schools, and in this case "you" means everybody.
Oh--I forgot.
Which movie were you referring to? I must have missed your exchange with Dale.
Keep your religion out of public schools, and in this case "you" means everybody.
By removing all religion from ps, you are promoting atheism. It is a totally Godless curriculum that supports your worldview and dismisses every other worldview.
Nobody should be expelled for sharing the evidence that points to intelligence. There is plenty of it. Nor should anyone be expelled for sharing some of the problems with the naturalistic evolutionary paradigm. All evidence should be brought to the table. As long as there is a scientific model and there is evidence to support the model, that is something worth checking into. Your religious views should not prevail over everyone else's. It is exactly what our founding fathers worked hard to keep from happening - one group's religious beliefs predominating all others.
I did not approve of everything Ben Stein did in his movie but I did appreciate the bottom-line point that other models are not allowed.
I have been working for several days on studying for this nursing exam. Amazingly, this institution begun by a Christian has lost its Christian roots in favor of this atheistic worldview. Thankfully, in practice many do not adhere to it.
The movie was How the Earth was Made by the History Channel. It was on iTunes for $1.99. Since dale mentioned it, I thought I would use it for homeschool.
It is amusing, but these shows just can't help but throw a jab at Christianity. They do it every single time. They show their real agenda.
Vera
" I remember Dale saying the same thing that he has a way of asking questions to determine if he's speaking to a Christian and won't hire them if he finds out that they are. "
No, I never ask or try to find out anyone's religion.
I said that if in an interview someone pipes up and tell me they will pray for the wisdom to make a proper decision, I am not going to suppose that they have enough confidence to make a proper decision.
Vera,
It is all about value systems. I respect people's value systems, but organisations have value systems too.
If I am going to place someone in a "sensitive" position, I just cannot be confident that they will look out for the values of the organization if they are going to appeal to supernatural entities.
They need to have the skill sets to perform the job.
Anyhoo, I just hope all works out for you. I am kinda argued out for now and have some other stresses to deal with.
Take care
/d
Anyhoo, I just hope all works out for you. I am kinda argued out for now and have some other stresses to deal with.
I will pray for you.
Prayer is not what you think it is for most of us. Every person is unique. If I have a friend and you have the same friend, our relationship to that person will probably be different. The friend may even find it challenging to have us both in the same room especially if we are both close friends with this one person.
I think prayer is the same way. People communicate to God in their own unique ways. You discover that, when you pray together with someone. There is a balance in all things. Those who disregard the natural world and reality in favor of the supernatural-only miss the mark and those who dismiss God for the natural-only miss the mark. We live in a natural world with an unseen supernatural God.
What God does is to bring about circumstances that are timely and beyond what we could have predicted. It will be a natural thing that happens that is unexpected. I am going to pray for you. Look for God to move in the situation.
Vera
Vera, re your February 14, 2009 6:22 AM, lemme get this straight:
Your kid got in with the wrong crowd and that's because mandatory teacher-led prayer was ruled unconstitutional -- forty years ago?
weemaryanne
Your kid got in with the wrong crowd and that's because mandatory teacher-led prayer was ruled unconstitutional -- forty years ago?
It seems that the "wrong crowd" anymore is the norm. The youth today are indifferent toward God and His holy standards. They have no fear of God whatsoever. Even the ones who call themselves "Christians."
Vera
Vera, now lemme get this straight:
Every crowd is the wrong crowd?
And that's because mandatory teacher-led prayer was ruled unconstitutional forty years ago?
Um, Vera, about those kids, let me 'splain sumpin' to you:
You go to their hangouts for the express purpose of informing them that they're destined for eternal torture. I think if you arrived on my doorstep with such a message then you really shouldn't be surprised if I respond by getting allupinyerface.
I'm just sayin'.
weemaryanne
Every crowd is the wrong crowd?
And that's because mandatory teacher-led prayer was ruled unconstitutional forty years ago?
Not just that but the atheist agenda taking over our public schools. It was the removal of prayer and respect toward God, the removal of any mention of Him from textbooks where He clearly intervened, and the removal of the Bible as a standard. You don't have to read it or take a class in it for it to have an effect on the people. I was never offered a class in Bible nor did any teacher ever teach from it. The only thing that should have been done through those evolution trials is for science to be allowed to test and know things as a separate jurisdiction...period.
The youth of today are indifferent toward God and His holy standard. Many of them mock God and blaspheme His holy name. They fornicate and worse. Many of them do drugs. Some get addicted to the drugs. Others don't. Some get STD and pregnant and some don't. They dress seductively. And worse of all, they murder their sons and daughters. They are rebellious toward their parents. And then accuse the parents of being horrible for reacting to their rebellion. They use the foulest language imaginable. Check out any ps in our nation or take a week and travel down to your local juvenile court house.
We see them in our neighborhood. We meet them by the droves out in the streets. The girls lift up their tops to our preachers and show them their breasts to be as gross and nasty as they can. The guys gyrate in front of them. The stench of beer and puke is in the air. That is what the ps is pumping out: youth without the fear of God and no moral compass. No matter where we go, we meet them by the thousands, not just one or two. You could count the ones who are walking uprightly on one hand.
My son, just on an academic level, is top of his class in math after being home schooled by me. He always aces his tests while the rest of the class doesn't have a clue. My other son was the same way. Last week my son made 100 on his test. The majority of the class failed.
You know what's semi-discouraging about that is that it is very difficult for our children to find someone who is upright. Someone who will wait until they get married to have sex. Someone who doesn't drink alcohol or do drugs. Someone who would never kill their son or daughter. Someone who loves God with all their hearts. Thank God though because we have met them. My daughter lives a thousand of miles away from me in Ohio but she does have a great guy.
Vera
Vera, you're oblivious to the effect you have on people. Let me explain.
To believers, your message sounds as wonderful as babies cooing, blackbirds singing, and orchestras belting out the Ode to Joy at 180 decibels.
To nonbelievers, it sounds more like this:
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/03/god_the_petulant_petty_whiner.php
As for "finding someone upright," I daresay that's what many people look for in a relationship.
But there are other strategies for finding a suitable friend or mate. For instance, there's "finding someone decent and learning to appreciate them for who they are even though they disagree with me."
The late William Buckley, one of the founders of the modern conservative movement in America, was a devout Roman Catholic, old-school style. His wife Patricia was some variety of Protestant, I think. Their son, Christopher, has been an atheist for all of his adult life.
Bill founded a magazine that I read off-and-on for years, National Review, and wrote for it regularly until his retirement. (It's hardly worth picking up since his departure.) He didn't often mention his family but when he did, it was abundantly clear that he adored them, and they him.
Love doesn't require identical beliefs, Vera.
"....The only thing that should have been done through those evolution trials is for science to be allowed to test and know things as a separate jurisdiction....."
As usual, not sure exactly what you mean. However:
There's a dramatized transcript of portions of the Dover trial which you can watch on PBS. It shows that that's exactly what the scientists did: They explained what they knew about evolution to Judge Jones. They also showed him evidence that the Dover school board was purposely (if sneakily) promoting the teaching of a religious belief -- creationism -- in science class. Judge Jones knew this is illegal and that's why he ruled against it.
I don't know any more law or jurisprudence than you, Vera, but I understand this. Why don't you?
As for your son's math scores, that's great news, and reason to be proud. Seriously. Math means money, so if he likes math then there's a good chance that he may be well employed in future. (Let's hope we still have an economy when he grows up.)
However, the fact that public schools have trouble getting math concepts across to a majority of their students has nothing to do with religion. Besides, Vera, if public schools are so inept with basic algebra, do you seriously expect them to get theology straight?!
To nonbelievers, it sounds more like this:
I agree with this. We reap what we sow. This is what atheism has brought to our youth. Atheism came to the ps as a tag along to the problems with science. As I said already, science should have been declared its own jurisdiction. But science was used by atheists to remove Christianity from the schools altogether so that no mention of God was allowed unless it is a negative comment. This not only removed freedom of speech from those who wished to share their faith with others but it also was the catalyst that has led our children into darkness. Why did one sect's religious views take precedence over everyone else? This was the very thing our founding fathers tried to avert.
Vera
There's a dramatized transcript of portions of the Dover trial which you can watch on PBS. It shows that that's exactly what the scientists did: They explained what they knew about evolution to Judge Jones. They also showed him evidence that the Dover school board was purposely (if sneakily) promoting the teaching of a religious belief -- creationism -- in science class. Judge Jones knew this is illegal and that's why he ruled against it.
Actually, if there is a proof in a model, it can be taught. What they object to is pseudo-science. Hugh Ross and RTB have a model that uses the science exactly as it is and the Bible to show that their model fits what is known. Where God obviously intervened, they point this out. I like their approach. They take the known world to unlock what Scripture is saying. The church fathers of old knew that they didn't know what the age of the earth was. They knew they were speculating but did say that the earth could possibly be old per what they were reading. The Bible should never have been promoted as a science book. Science should not have been made to fit someone's interpretation of the Scriptures knowing that the Bible doesn't teach every piece of scientific evidence. The Bible clearly states this.
The Christians retaliated to the attack the best way they knew by upholding their beliefs. It wasn't as though we, as average citizens, could verify what was being shared. All we knew was that our faith was being attacked through science. We didn't come to God on the basis of science as our truth but repentance and reconciliation. That is the part that you keep sidestepping, weemaryanne. If you are still in sin, you aren't getting in. We saw the domino effect where our children were led further and further down a dark path of sin. It is science that is being used to falsify Christianity. Now here's the kicker. The Bible harmonizes with science when you allow the known world to unlock it.
For example, look at Genesis 1:1-2
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
I have heard several people share on these two verses. Some would say that there was a world before our world. It is kind of obvious that time elapses between 1 and 2. Although from the YEC perspective, they hold that no time passes. I have watched and read secular science on these issues. They all agree that the heavens and the earth were created ex nihilo. It is not a static universe. There was a beginning. That is a fact. It occurred approximately 14 billion years ago. That isn't too long ago if you consider those numbers in comparison to infinity.
Dale had me listen to this film from PBS called How the Earth was Made. What is so totally cool is that the secular scientists describe the initial conditions of the earth and they match vs. 2 to the letter. The earth is void of life, there is no land, and it is a water world. These scientists have no idea how all this water got here and why it didn't evaporate out into space. We may discover that in the future. All I'm saying is that the truth matches what Moses wrote down and that long before there was any science to prove this.
Vera
BS
Long and tiresome BS.
You don't get to pick your conclusion first and then seek out "facts" to support it, Vera. That's not science.
Um, Vera, about those kids, let me 'splain sumpin' to you:
You go to their hangouts for the express purpose of informing them that they're destined for eternal torture. I think if you arrived on my doorstep with such a message then you really shouldn't be surprised if I respond by getting allupinyerface.
Now let me splain sumpin to you. They are lifting their tops and exposing their breasts whether we're there or not. There are live shows in New Orleans where people get up on stage and have live sex shows. There is pornography everywhere. They act like they act because that's the way they act.
Vera
You don't get to pick your conclusion first and then seek out "facts" to support it, Vera. That's not science.
Science is not the only basis in truth. I am studying all these nursing books and let me tell you, the science of this relies a great deal on something that one cannot prove - feelings. Everything is about feelings. Gaining people's trust through identity with their feelings in a HUGE part of the nursing process even when common sense would dictate not to identify with their feelings.
The Word of God is equal to science because they are both from the same Source. They both display the same kind of pattern or signature.
Vera
Keep hittin' the books, Vera. No amount of feeling or prayer will save a patient if you don't figure out how to interpret an ECG.
Keep hittin' the books, Vera. No amount of feeling or prayer will save a patient if you don't figure out how to interpret an ECG.
That is only partially true from the perspective of the nursing process. Many disease processes overlap and can appear to be the exact same thing except for one difference. That difference may rely upon the patient's "feelings" or state of being ie confusion. It is a very demanding test.
Vera
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