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Friday, March 6, 2009

The Problems with the Doctrine of "Sin Nature."



Many centuries ago, a man named Augustine coined a phrase called "sin nature," which is not one place in Scripture. Sin nature was two words that were used to explain why man sins and falls short of the glory of God. The ideology was based on two passages of Scripture. One is Romans 5 and the other is Psalm 51 and of course, the passages that clearly state that all sin and fall short of the glory of God. The premise was that because Adam sinned, we inherited a sin nature so that we were inclined to sin. Many have explained that this was a dead spirit or an evil wicked heart inherited in Adam.

The problem is that this teaching gave man an excuse. This did not take into account the rest of the book of Romans because Romans 1 is also clear that man has no excuse. Romans 2:14 also would suggest that there are some that walk in the Law without having the Law with a clear conscience.

When we began to preach out on the streets, we began to note a phenomenon where many so called Christians were deceived into believing that they couldn't help but sin in flagrantly vile ways but thank God Jesus died for their sins. I have placed one of our youtubes in front of the abortion clinic in New Orleans to demonstrate this problem. This woman, like thousands of others, thinks she can ask for forgiveness at the end of the day. Homosexuals, in particular, constantly proclaim that they were "born sinners." This caused us to begin investigating these teachings.

People sincerely believe that God understands our plight and will excuse them on the day of judgment because they humbly admit how weak they are in their sin nature even after being saved. I know God fearing Christians that honestly believe that admitting that they sin every day is the right way to be as it is a profession of humility. That right there should throw up red flags. (1 John 3) Unfortunately, people like to sin because there is pleasure in it for a season. They don't like the message that says to "Go and sin no more". They want to believe that God's love, in part, has a sympathy toward sin. Nothing could be further from truth.

Let's think about this logically. We are created beings. Right? This means sin nature is a part of our created being especially since we can't help it according to this doctrine. God knows there is the possibility of sin when he created us. God isn't stupid. He knew very well that Adam and Eve could disobey the one law He had going and eat from this very beautiful advantageous tree. And please recall that they supposedly chose to disobey this law without a sin nature.

God recognizes that He is slain from the foundation of the world. This is important because God knows how much it will cost Him if Adam and Eve do disobey. So God in His infinite wisdom builds within His creation a computer software virus called "sin nature." Now whenever this first created man rebels, the switch on the sin nature program goes into effect so that now all the rest of his offspring will be born with a sin nature doing the heinous things that God hates per God's design so that He must cast everyone into hell's fire and hate them. I hope this is sinking in because this was what got to me to help me see past all the teaching I had ever gotten on this topic. I fought this tooth and nail because I was so conditioned to believe that we are born sinning.

I began to ask myself, "Are there examples in Scripture of people that lived righteously before Jesus died on the cross?" (Romans 2:14) Many folks were declared by God as righteous before Jesus died on the cross. Zacharias and Elizabeth, for example in Luke 1:6. Daniel is another. Abel is another. Even Paul said that he was blameless under the Law. Phil 3. But then in Romans 7, he shares how impossible it was to keep the Law in his heart. The more Law he understood, the more that sin raged in him to where he was brought into captivity to it. He cries out to be delivered from this situation and then declares that he can, thank God, through Jesus Christ.

If you read Romans 5 closely, you will see that sin didn't pass to all men but death did because all had sinned. It is the body of this death that is the problem. We inherited death, not sin. Our problem is referred to as the "flesh." It is apparently the selfish self gratification of this flesh that we desire and are deceived into believing we have a right to.

As to Psalm 51, instead of David declaring that he was born sinning, could he be sharing some infidelity in his conception? Sex is not sin. So he can't be saying that the act of sex conceived him in sin. Is he suggesting that he was conceived in sin because he is human? Was Jesus then "conceived in sin" because he was also created exactly like we are with the "seed of David?" (Hebrews 2:16-18, 2 Timothy 2:8) The parameters had to be the same for the victory to be a real victory over this flesh. Jesus denied His flesh 100% of the time and chose to walk obedient to the Spirit. He gave up heaven to accomplish this.

In terms of child rearing, I had been told through child experts that children have a sin nature and that they should be spanked young to whack that sin nature out of them. Although I didn't follow that admonition, I was conditioned to expect sin from my children so that even when I could clearly see that there was the possibility of them being innocent, I expected the opposite. Without even realizing it, I was encouraging my children to sin. Then I noted that Corrie ten Boom's parents didn't spank their children. They are the most successful family that I can think of.

Fast forward to the 21st century, we are in a heap big trouble with a very Holy God. We have people sinning left and right because they falsely believe that they can't help it. They are supposed Christians on a fast track to hell. Can you imagine living your whole life as a worker of iniquity thinking all that sin is covered because you asked for forgiveness at the end of the day? Matthew 7:21 Actually, that would follow logically because you would have to accuse God for giving you a sin nature should the subject come up during this confrontation. The way I understood it was that I would be different than the heathen because I would plead the blood of Jesus. Unfortunately, that is not what the disciples were teaching. Colossians 1 speaks of being presented "unblameable and unreproveable." 1 John 3 clearly states that the way to tell the difference between someone who is saved and one who is not is whether they are sinning or not.

Some believe these sinning Christians are "false converts." I believe that if Adam could know God and sin then anyone can choose to sin and when we do, our relationship to God is severed until we repent. While we are sinning, should we die and not repent, we will not inherit the kingdom. It is a deception to think otherwise. (1 Cor. 6:9-11, Gal. 5) Paul made that distinction in 1 Cor. 5 by stating that we are not to eat with someone who calls themselves a brother and is sinning.

Some men of God proposed that sin was unacceptable to God but only in terms of repercussions here on this earth. One taught that initially your spirit gets saved but it just takes time for your soul to be saved meaning that you will continue to sin until you stop eventually. Regrettably, this still came at the problem from the foundational doctrine of sin nature. To battle sin nature, instead of seeking the power of God to be set free, (2 Timothy 3) he gave people tangible ways to stop sinning and in essence presented his own law. Those who did not uphold the "law" were shunned and ostracized. Some people, it would seem, were able to make a better show than others. Others, who were not so good at acting, did not fair as well.

Can we stop sinning? If you recognize that the problem is your flesh and a weakened spirit, you realize that there is real hope through the power of God and His divine nature imparted to us called grace. We are not born sinning but innocent and we have been given a conscience. Most children do not sin. They tell the truth. They love their mommies and daddies. Crying babies are not sinning as we have been led to believe. This is why Jesus said to become like a little child for of such is the kingdom of heaven. When we sin it is usually because we are between a rock and hard place and we CHOOSE to do the opposite of what our conscience is telling us is the right thing. We also have an adversary, the devil, who deceives us. The other reason is to give us some sort of physical pleasure. James says that we are enticed by our own lusts. Apparently, this happened to Adam and Eve as well. When we sin, the guilt is overwhelming especially as a child. I remember those things as though they happened yesterday. Once you give into sin, you become a child of wrath and are by nature then evil. It is a path of no end until it is broken by repentance and pardon through the blood of Jesus who creates a clean heart in us and then we are set free from sin by His power. It is the only way to get into heaven.

See if you understand the problem, then there is a solution to the problem and we can be set free by His power without any law. We can actually be around hard core sin and not feel the least bit enticed to do it. I have lived that.

There was so much fear built into this teaching because it is the law and with the law there must be consequences when the law is not upheld. So there was fear of reprisal and humiliation but there was also fear in being around anyone else that didn't uphold these standards. When parents would come to these folks disparagingly because of a rebellious son or daughter, these people would direct their attention to a place where they did not keep this law. For example, they might say, "Did you ever listen to rock music?" Unfortunately, in this day and time, rock music is virtually impossible to stay away from. Another question that might be asked was, "Does the mom ever feel the the husband is not living up to his spiritual responsibilities and let him know? If so, she encouraged the child to be rebellious." Thus the child's sin is now the mom's fault for not upholding the typical sinning husband. God is not going to excuse their rebellious son on the day of Judgement because the parents happened to be a particular way. That child's sin is not the fault of the parents, which explains why God does not distinguish which parents should be honored and which shouldn't.

People were encouraged to pull away completely from the world and cloister themselves for this reason and to shun any other believer that was not like they were mainly out of fear of being dragged into sin. Sin equals not keeping standards. So there was no multiplication of talents, which is a hell-bound offense. Matthew 25 Let that one sink in. Jesus said (not Vera) that if you don't multiply your talents, He's casting you into hell's fire. See, there was never a distinction made between who was literally sinning and not going to heaven anyway and someone who might not, for example, wear dresses. I don't think they even realized what they were doing at the time because I think they were genuinely trying to keep people from falling into sin because they knew sin offends God. It is only folks that have a weak faith in the power of God that need standards to keep from sinning. (Romans 14) If rock music causes you to sin, then by all means, cut it off and I as your brother or sister in Christ will uphold your conviction.

I am not suggesting that we shouldn't have standards or convictions. I know there are things that offend God and so I don't participate in them. I have a dress style that I believe is modest. But those things can't make me righteous and they won't save me. They may or may not indicate that I am holy. My holiness is dependent on what is going on on the inside which will translate in my actions. I have seen nuns that look so holy in their habits. But that dress does not make them holy. They could be practicing evil in their hearts in privacy and still be wearing this outfit.

I see that God has used many men even when they were wrong to keep people from offending Him. And even though I would argue that rock music isn't an excuse, I would agree that it can have a negative effect on one's spirit. I definitely do not like it for worship because it does not reflect the holiness of God.

Take this new movie called Fireproof. In it, the mom is writing this journal and she basically says concerning the pornography that this fellow is into that to have a fine marriage, he must give up the pornography. Do you see a problem with this advice to help this person to repent?

While it is true that he might have a restored relationship, his turnaround may or may not fix his marriage. What if the wife decided to run off with the rich doctor? Since things did not go as planned, does the husband go back to his porn addiction because the promised result didn't happen? What would stop him at that point? Let's face it. In a movie, we imagine that the wife would be remiss for rejecting Kirk Cameron. But in real life, she's not on camera and the sinning husband is Joe Nobody. What about that he is offending a Holy God and she is too and they're both going to bust hell wide open if they don't repent?

This was the kind of advice and focus that these folks promoted all the time. If you do this, God will do that. But what if our actions or repentance do not bring about the promised change especially because the promise would have to come through someone that is either sinning or somehow says yes or no to the promptings of the Holy Spirit? Where does that leave us with God? I tell you where it left me. I felt that somehow God must not have liked me as much as the other guy that got the blessing.

For the first time in my life, I feel that I am on the right track. Just by pulling that one teaching from the mix of teachings along with "once saved; always saved" and recognizing that God has done much to keep me from sinning and yet I chose to sin anyway entrapping myself in the devil's web by my own freewill choice, I know now how to help others out of their sin by grace through faith. I chose to sin. I chose to repent.

I found what I was looking for in Christ by His Spirit leading me in the way. I found genuine righteousness by grace through faith and this not of myself, it was the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast.

Vera

306 comments:

1 – 200 of 306   Newer›   Newest»
Weemaryanne said...

http://www.gods-answer-to-cancer.com/

Tell you what, Vera:

I'll read your post - and it appears to be a recordbreaker for you - if you'll read this. (See link above.)

All of it.

This person has evidence. And technology. And pat answers. And (throws up hands while widening eyes) and EVERYTHING.

Just like you.

So tell me, please: Why should I believe YOUR claims but not THIS claim?

verandoug said...

I was actually hoping Christians would read this article. I sincerely believe that this doctrinal error has caused many problems for the church.

Let's take a test. You kneel down where you are and say this, "Holy Spirit, if you are real. Show me you are real. Show me that Jesus is the Son of God."

That is a microscopic test of faith.

Vera

Weemaryanne said...

'Mornin', Vera.

I tried it.

Apparently the Holy Spirit isn't awake yet.

Luv,

Wee

Weemaryanne said...

Wups. I left something out. I'll re-post:

'Mornin', Vera.

I tried it.

In fact I tried it some thirty years ago.

Apparently the Holy Spirit was asleep and s/he/it isn't awake yet.


Luv,

Wee

Weemaryanne said...

"I was actually hoping Christians would read this article...."

Translation:

"I was actually hoping only Christians would read this article...."

And I was hoping only attractive men would show up at my door. Keep dreamin', Vera.

Leigh said...

I got here through Ray Comfort's blog.

You know what people like these idiots in the Jesus shirts are trying to accomplish? They go out and yell with their megaphones and taunt people with their stupid beliefs until they anger someone into a response and then tape it to show 'how evil the other person is'. That is their game plan over and over and over. It's petty and pathetic.

Of course, the Jesus heads will say that they are really there to scream at people about 'sin', but that's not really why they are there. They just want to provoke a response in order to have it on tape so they can show it to the stupid sheep at their church and say "See, look how evil the big, bad sinners are!"

verandoug said...

My purpose is to expose bad theology here. Both my husband and I are concerned about the teaching in the church that is promoting the horrible things we see out on the street. We thought that these people would be atheists or at best heathens. They aren't. They're Christians who stupidly believe that they can sin every day and at the end of he day be forgiven. So we attempt to get them on tape to show others how their theology translates to others. Be assured that the majority of churches do not adhere to what we are teaching. It doesn't keep paying customers coming back. There are still a few good churches out there. Thank God!

We have great conversations with people. If you look at our tapes, you'll see that we have good discussions. We target places where we know we'll find the hardest core sinners in America.

I wrote this piece in the hopes of the Christians reading it. se la vi

Vera

verandoug said...

My purpose is to expose bad theology here. Both my husband and I are concerned about the teaching in the church that is promoting the horrible things we see out on the street. We thought that these people would be atheists or at best heathens. They aren't. They're Christians who stupidly believe that they can sin every day and at the end of he day be forgiven. So we attempt to get them on tape to show others how their theology translates to others. Be assured that the majority of churches do not adhere to what we are teaching. It doesn't keep paying customers coming back. There are still a few good churches out there. Thank God!

We have great conversations with people. If you look at our tapes, you'll see that we have good discussions. We target places where we know we'll find the hardest core sinners in America.

I wrote this piece in the hopes of the Christians reading it. se la vi

Vera

verandoug said...

"I was actually hoping only Christians would read this article...."

And I was hoping only attractive men would show up at my door. Keep dreamin', Vera.


You're so funny. I just didn't think atheists would be that interested and I believe this is an important issue.

I had a good lookin' guy show up at my door once. :-) He married me.

Vera

Weemaryanne said...

Aw, Vera, and here I thought we unbelievers were the hardest-core sinners on account of we don't believe in your imaginary friend.

verandoug said...

weemaryanne,

He is not imaginary. He is real. He is terrifying. He is loving. He is merciful. He is just. He is HOLY and pure and righteous. He has proven Himself and set His glory in the heavens. It is only the simple minded and naive that refuse to acknowledge His existence when it is so clearly evident in all that is made. He is clearly seen. The end of this path for you is eternal damnation. On the day you stand (if you can stand) before him, you will know that I told you the truth and your friends were lying. On that day, it will be too late. Just know that this will be your place for eternity by your own freewill choice. You chose to believe that you are more intelligent than those God uses to draw people to Him. It is humbling to come to Him.

God has given plenty of evidence of His existence to man. Man likes to sin. The problem with many Christians is that the seeds of doubt sown through high school concerning God coupled with a church that wants to be all friendly to the matter have caused these people to falsely believe they can sin every day. One of the greatest sources to the root of the problem stems from atheism that has a foothold in our ps system and teaches a Godless history of the world.

Vera

Weemaryanne said...

Vera, I repeat:

I do not take advice -- and certainly not empty threats -- from people who believe there are witches in Massachusetts.

Leigh said...

LOL !! This conversation is hilarious to watch! Vera, you are one bizarre, screwed up human being. I've seen some weird christian blogs before but this one takes the cake.

He is not imaginary. He is real. He is terrifying. He is loving. He is merciful. He is just. He is HOLY and pure and righteous. He has proven Himself and set His glory in the heavens.

So are all the other hobgoblins in your head, I'm sure.

It is only the simple minded and naive that refuse to acknowledge His existence when it is so clearly evident in all that is made.

Then you resort to attempted insults to those who can't see your imaginary friend. Oh yeah, that'll show 'em !!


He is clearly seen.

LMAO. Uh huh. But yet- so invisible!

The end of this path for you is eternal damnation. ....etc, etc...

Please keep up your random blabber. This really is entertaining !

Weemaryanne said...

Leigh, if you want a laugh then I suggest you take a look at

http://www.gods-answer-to-cancer.com/

It's a miracle! and only $300!

:-)

captain howdy said...

@vera--

He is not imaginary. He is real. He is terrifying. He is loving. He is merciful. He is just. He is HOLY and pure and righteous.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And invisible, too.

verandoug said...

CH

And invisible, too.

Exactly!

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Vera

verandoug said...

weemaryanne

I do not take advice -- and certainly not empty threats -- from people who believe there are witches in Massachusetts.

Are you saying that you don't believe that the covens exist or that the witchcraft is nonsense?

Vera

verandoug said...

Leigh

Thanks for your input. =8-/

A God who wants to show He's real without forcing you to comply, set up a world that demonstrated His attributes to mankind and sent His Spirit here to reach man. Spiritual truth is valid and many have had to admit that. Not everything that is real is tangible and easily seen. Even in the scientific realm, we have not proven the existence of the neutrino. Yet it is considered real because all aspects point to it.

The truth about God is revealed in the things that are made. I see your belief in no God about as absurd as it comes. I could laugh at you too if the outcome were not so horrible. Life itself is proof enough of God's existence. It always amazes me at how atheists can dismiss the perfection and homeostatic nature of the human body and the way all these systems function collectively. One thing out of alignment, and death or major impairment can result.

I trusted Jesus in faith once and now I know Him. You don't and so on the outside looking in, these things seem absurd and foolish because you want something that you can use your five senses to understand. I believe if you reach out to God, He will reach back to you.

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 1 Corinthians 1:18

The Bible said it first.

Vera

Weemaryanne said...

The witchcraft is nonsense. The "covens" - if they exist - are not clans of witches; they're just foolish women who like to get together for silly playacting.

I don't begrudge them their fun. I only wish they would take up, say, quilting, which would enable them to produce something useful from their socializing.

verandoug said...

The witchcraft is nonsense. The "covens" - if they exist - are not clans of witches; they're just foolish women who like to get together for silly playacting.

I don't begrudge them their fun. I only wish they would take up, say, quilting, which would enable them to produce something useful from their socializing


OK, well we don't believe the way you believe. We believe that these women are delving into satanic activities and the way to fix the situation is to help them see the error of their ways by encouraging them to repent.

Of course, taking up quilt making would be a fine alternative. However, if they don't repent and receive Jesus as their Lord and Savior, they are still on a fast track to hell.

You know, discounting God and the battle waged against Him and the problems that result does not make it go away.

Many blessings!

Vera

Leigh said...

WeeMaryAnn,

That link was great. Some people will buy anything.

Leigh said...

Vera,

Your god is not only invisible, but also ineffective.

A God who wants to show He's real without forcing you to comply, set up a world that demonstrated His attributes to mankind and sent His Spirit here to reach man. Spiritual truth is valid and many have had to admit that. Not everything that is real is tangible and easily seen. Even in the scientific realm, we have not proven the existence of the neutrino. Yet it is considered real because all aspects point to it.

And? Your 'proof' of this is that you believe it, nothing more.

Let me guess, now you are going o send me to Reasons to Believe for some 'proof'. When mainstream science accepts their 'proofs' in peer reviewed research journals, let me know. Til then their site is nothing more than 'Reasons to ignore reality and actual science'.

The truth about God is revealed in the things that are made. I see your belief in no God about as absurd as it comes. I could laugh at you too if the outcome were not so horrible. Life itself is proof enough of God's existence. It always amazes me at how atheists can dismiss the perfection and homeostatic nature of the human body and the way all these systems function collectively. One thing out of alignment, and death or major impairment can result.


LOL ! Truth of a god in things that are made? Life itself is proof only of life itself. Existence does not prove causation.

Your logic is this: 'One thing out of alignment and major impairment or death can result'; therefore the Christian god exists. Things with the human body go wrong all the time and major impairment or death does result, does that mean the Christian god does not exist? Your logic is critically flawed at best.


I trusted Jesus in faith once and now I know Him. You don't and so on the outside looking in, these things seem absurd and foolish because you want something that you can use your five senses to understand. I believe if you reach out to God, He will reach back to you.

Faith is hope and desire mistaken for knowledge.

I am a former Christian, so you can save your jargon about how I never knew god, how I was never a true Christian and whatever else you can come up with to explain away why I no longer believe in your god.

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 1 Corinthians 1:18

The Bible said it first.


Here comes the self righteous dung. In other words, you're some special being with inside knowledge about god and I'm just a foolish idiot that deserves to burn. Why, instead of hiding behind some nonsensical Bible verse, do yo not just come out and say the bigoted, ignorant thing that you think? Do you think it somehow makes it less bigoted or ignorant because it comes from the Bible?

WeeMaryAnn hits the nail on the head on the topic of witchcraft. It's just silly, just like any other religion. It's just another way to make one feel like they have some sort of control over a world and environment that they don't have control over. Another thing to bow down to and sell out to. There are no 'satanic powers' or demons or little green men. It's all in your head with all the other goblins and gods.

Weemaryanne said...

"....Spiritual truth is valid and many have had to admit that...."

Citations, please.

verandoug said...

Leigh

Your god is not only invisible, but also ineffective.

My God freed me from sin and reconciled me to Himself. He is hardly ineffective. And He has revealed to me more truths than I could count. From your perspective because you don't know Him and refuse to come to Him on His terms, yes, it would seem that way but it is only because you want to do it your way.

And? Your 'proof' of this is that you believe it, nothing more.

One demonstration is the world of nature compared to the words of the Bible. There are aspects of these accounts that nobody but a Creator could know.

For example, Job 38:31 says, Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion? We didn't know that the Pleiades star cluster was bound for a fact until we sent up the Hubble telescope. Job is probably the oldest book in the Bible written so many years before men could know these things.

Here is another, Isaiah 40:22 says, It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

We didn't know that the universe was stretching out until recently. How could these writers know that the earth was circular or that the heavens were stretching out long before it could ever be verified?

Let me guess, now you are going o send me to Reasons to Believe for some 'proof'. When mainstream science accepts their 'proofs' in peer reviewed research journals, let me know. Til then their site is nothing more than 'Reasons to ignore reality and actual science'.

Most atheists have also built a model based on their belief that there is no God and that all of nature occurred without any intervention. RTB did the same only theirs was built on the words of the Bible and the predictions that would coincide with their model. In their book, Creation as Science, they compare four of the latest models - YEC, Theistic model, Naturalistic model and theirs. I have to tell you that what they have shared is overwhelming in regards to evidence.

Existence does not prove causation.

It astounds me how little folks from your group know about biology. Just take the reproductive system and the growth and development of a baby in the womb. There are aspects of this that are so complicated that it blows your mind. As a nurse, I have to know when these events occur and why. It is absurd to believe that these things evolved without design.

Your logic is this: 'One thing out of alignment and major impairment or death can result'; therefore the Christian god exists. Things with the human body go wrong all the time and major impairment or death does result, does that mean the Christian God does not exist? Your logic is critically flawed at best.

What it does demonstrate is that we experience death just like the animals. We have been demoted to that position because we sin and we continue to sin because we love darkness more than light.

Faith is hope and desire mistaken for knowledge.

I am a former Christian, so you can save your jargon about how I never knew God, how I was never a true Christian and whatever else you can come up with to explain away why I no longer believe in your God.


This is where Ray and I part company. I believe it is absolutely possible that you knew God and chose to start sinning, be angry and bitter toward Him for not giving you what you wanted or whatever else. When you chose to do that, the relationship was separated again. Now Ray would argue that you didn't know Him. That is probably true in a sense because folks have this fairy tale view of God that they've made up in their heads and when that god doesn't fulfill their expectations, they get angry. Mostly this comes from bad teaching. See, pastors think that if they present an all loving God that wants to give you your every desire and wish that this will get people to join up. We try to share that God loves you but He is also just. See, I think that is why this topic of creation is so important. In the creation events we have terrorizing creatures such as t-rex and megalodon. Now those that want to hold that God is all-loving and that He created puppies and kittens but that man's fall somehow forced nature into this position, totally miss the attributes of God that He is trying to show here. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men. That is not the puppy and the kitten God but the one represented in these terrifying creatures. God's love is very apparent to me because He does love me. I keep His commandments by grace. But for those that are living in darkness and sin, the only God they are going to know is the one that is terrifying.

Here comes the self righteous dung. In other words, you're some special being with inside knowledge about god and I'm just a foolish idiot that deserves to burn.

I didn't say that. I said that the Bible predicts that your opinion will be that the message is foolish. And you do.

Why, instead of hiding behind some nonsensical Bible verse, do yo not just come out and say the bigoted, ignorant thing that you think? Do you think it somehow makes it less bigoted or ignorant because it comes from the Bible?

Because we stand against sin, we will be called those things. You love those that do evil. I don't.

WeeMaryAnn hits the nail on the head on the topic of witchcraft. It's just silly, just like any other religion. It's just another way to make one feel like they have some sort of control over a world and environment that they don't have control over. Another thing to bow down to and sell out to. There are no 'satanic powers' or demons or little green men. It's all in your head with all the other goblins and gods.

They wouldn't be involved in this if it didn't get them what they wanted. I think you might be surprised how many famous folks who have tons of money have sold their soul to the devil in satanic worship.

Vera

Weemaryanne said...

"...Most atheists have also built a model based on their belief that there is no God...."

Wrong. Most atheists were raised as believers.

Leigh said...

Vera, I am starting to enjoy coming here. You have no idea the entertainment factor I get from your replies. You claim to be a nurse. This scares me.

My God freed me from sin and reconciled me to Himself. He is hardly ineffective. And He has revealed to me more truths than I could count. From your perspective because you don't know Him and refuse to come to Him on His terms, yes, it would seem that way but it is only because you want to do it your way.

Assertions without any independent, objective documentation for claims of 'sin', the presence of a deity, this deity freeing you from anything, or any 'truths' supposedly revealed to you. Let me ask you this, Vera. When this deity reveals some truth to you, do you call the media and set up interviews so that anyone can independently verify these truths and examine exactly how they were 'revealed' to you? No? Well why not? After all, a deity is giving you special knowledge; do you not think this should be front page news?? You don't know me, Vera, so your claim that I 'want to do things my way' is another bogus ascertain on your part. You have no idea why I left Christianity. It had nothing to do with wanting to do anything any certain way.


One demonstration is the world of nature compared to the words of the Bible. There are aspects of these accounts that nobody but a Creator could know. For example, Job 38:31 says, Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion? We didn't know that the Pleiades star cluster was bound for a fact until we sent up the Hubble telescope. Job is probably the oldest book in the Bible written so many years before men could know these things.

Oh, the old Job claim. I thought you'd come up with better, but we'll go with this. Orion is a constellation, not a cluster, of stars. They appear to be in relation to each other to earthbound viewers. Actually, no relationship exists between the two, but the bible doesn't bother to point that out. Most likely because it is a book written by humans, from a human point of view, with no help from any deities.


Here is another, Isaiah 40:22 says, It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in: We didn't know that the universe was stretching out until recently. How could these writers know that the earth was circular or that the heavens were stretching out long before it could ever be verified?

The earth is not circular. The earth is an oblate ellipsoid. Look up at the night sky, Vera. The stars look stretched out. This is not some big scientific knowledge delivered to humans from some invisible deity. It's a simple observation man made when he ...oh, I dunno...LOOKED UP!!! LOL !

Now, if the writers of the bible had really wanted to show that they had some sort of special knowledge given to them by a deity they could have said something along the lines of ‘The earth is an oblate ellipsoid. I don’t know what an oblate ellipsoid is, but God told me that’s what it is and dang it, I believe it. Also, he told me that there is this thing called ‘penicillin’ and that we can stop dying from simple infections now, because he gave me the recipe.’ But, alas, no, all we have are vague mentions of clusters of stars and this is supposed to somehow ‘prove’ that this deity gave people thousands of years ago special knowledge. I weep for your lack of skepticism and critical thinking skills.

Most atheists have also built a model based on their belief that there is no God and that all of nature occurred without any intervention. RTB did the same only theirs was built on the words of the Bible and the predictions that would coincide with their model.

Agreed with MaryAnn that most atheists were raised as believers and ..this is the good part.. RTB is doing it wrong. Science does not start with a premise and then try to prove the premise right, as RTB does. Credible science starts with an objective point of view and sees if there is evidence to support it. RTB starts with a book and only looks at evidence that will support their already preconceived notion of truth. Fail. This is why none of their earth shattering 'scientific' conclusions get mainstream peer review. It's junk.

In their book, Creation as Science, they compare four of the latest models - YEC, Theistic model, Naturalistic model and theirs. I have to tell you that what they have shared is overwhelming in regards to evidence.

You can tell me anything you want. When any of this passes mainstream peer review, let me know.

It astounds me how little folks from your group know about biology. Just take the reproductive system and the growth and development of a baby in the womb. There are aspects of this that are so complicated that it blows your mind. As a nurse, I have to know when these events occur and why. It is absurd to believe that these things evolved without design.

Actually, I know biology pretty well. What is absurd is that with the massive amounts of scientific knowledge we have in this word that people would choose to believe the unscientific thought processes of people from thousands of years ago over what we have learned since. Also, none of what you just said has anything to do with the fact that Existence does not prove causation. I have a red car sitting in my drive way. That does not prove anything about the origins of that car, it only proves that there is a red car sitting on my drive way.


What it does demonstrate is that we experience death just like the animals. We have been demoted to that position because we sin and we continue to sin because we love darkness more than light.

You didn't correct your logic, you only tried to circumvent your logic flaw by changing the direction of the conversation. If you know biology so well you will know that we do not 'experience death just like the animals'. We are animals. Darkness and light have nothing to do with why we experience death or the behavior of any person. I recommend a basic grade school text book if you are confused as to the meaning of light and dark.


This is where Ray and I part company. I believe it is absolutely possible that you knew God and chose to start sinning, be angry and bitter toward Him for not giving you what you wanted or whatever else.

I am not angry or bitter towards any deity. You are assuming something you know nothing about.


When you chose to do that, the relationship was separated again. Now Ray would argue that you didn't know Him. That is probably true in a sense because folks have this fairy tale view of God that they've made up in their heads and when that god doesn't fulfill their expectations, they get angry.

All views of gods are fairy tales. It is foolish and immature for anyone to expect anything from that which there is no evidence for existence.

Mostly this comes from bad teaching. See, pastors think that if they present an all loving God that wants to give you your every desire and wish that this will get people to join up. We try to share that God loves you but He is also just. See, I think that is why this topic of creation is so important. In the creation events we have terrorizing creatures such as t-rex and megalodon. Now those that want to hold that God is all-loving and that He created puppies and kittens but that man's fall somehow forced nature into this position, totally miss the attributes of God that He is trying to show here. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men. That is not the puppy and the kitten God but the one represented in these terrifying creatures.

I understand that you garnered all of this from your bible, but these are merely ascertains without evidence. I thought we covered this already.

God's love is very apparent to me because He does love me. I keep His commandments by grace. But for those that are living in darkness and sin, the only God they are going to know is the one that is terrifying. I do not know any gods, much less any terrifying ones. I didn't say that. I said that the Bible predicts that your opinion will be that the message is foolish. And you do.

The bible doesn't predict anything. Period. Ever. Men, thousands of years ago, writing that some people might think something is foolish is not a prediction, it's a guess that anyone could make. I could say that one day people will think Ray Comfort was an idiot and I might be right. I'd be willing to bet money on it that I'd be right. That's not a prediction. It's a guess.


Because we stand against sin, we will be called those things. You love those that do evil. I don't.

Oh, it's apparent that you're a bigot. No guesswork involved there.


They wouldn't be involved in this if it didn't get them what they wanted. I think you might be surprised how many famous folks who have tons of money have sold their soul to the devil in satanic worship.

Please produce documented scientific evidence that witchcraft ever produced anything. Please produce documented scientific evidence for a satan, for the existence of a soul, and for anyone to be able to sell said soul to this thing called satan. Now, please produce a list of famous people with tons of money who have souls and have sold said soul to this satan dude. Please verify your claim before you present your 'evidence'. I'll be waiting, but please be aware that even if I live to be 100, I only have approximately 60 years to wait. Use your time wisely.

Weemaryanne said...

"....When you chose to [sever the relationship]...."

Vera, if belief is a choice, and if I chose to believe in any deity, then I'd pick --

-- Hold on. Which one would I pick?

Hmm. This is an amusing problem. (drums fingertips, Dr. Evil-style, against her undelicate jawline) Let me see, let me see, let me see.

Animal gods? Naah. Too much cleaning up after 'em.

Same goes for the gods that combine parts from different critters (e.g. snake + wings = Quetzalcoatl).

Tree gods? Nope. No conversation.

Water gods? Alas, I never learned to swim, so that's out.

Folk-hero type gods? Well, Santa Claus is cute but I'm done with him already. None of the rest ever appealed to me.

So you needn't feel miffed on behalf of your imaginary friend, V, since I haven't chosen any of the others, either.

verandoug said...

So you needn't feel miffed on behalf of your imaginary friend, V, since I haven't chosen any of the others, either.

For all the gods of the nations are idols: but the LORD made the heavens. Psalm 96:5

Not unto us, O LORD, not unto us, but unto thy name give glory, for thy mercy, and for thy truth's sake.

Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is now their God?

But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever He hath pleased.

Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men's hands.

They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not:

They have ears, but they hear not: noses have they, but they smell not:

They have hands, but they handle not: feet have they, but they walk not: neither speak they through their throat.

They that make them are like unto them; so is every one that trusteth in them.

O Israel, trust thou in the LORD: He is their help and their shield.

O house of Aaron, trust in the LORD: He is their help and their shield.

Ye that fear the LORD, trust in the LORD: He is their help and their shield.

The LORD hath been mindful of us: He will bless us; He will bless the house of Israel; He will bless the house of Aaron.

He will bless them that fear the LORD, both small and great.

The LORD shall increase you more and more, you and your children.

Ye are blessed of the LORD which made heaven and earth.

The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD's: but the earth hath He given to the children of men.

The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

But we will bless the LORD from this time forth and for evermore. Praise the LORD.


Vera

verandoug said...

Citations, please.

Any time a scientist has reached the point where he recognizes that he is seeing something greater than himself, such as what happened to Einstein, that is a point where people have had to admit there is spiritual truth.

I know the chain of events that leads to the place where you're at. It is not a good end.

Vera

Weemaryanne said...

Vera,

Citations please. Remember, you claimed "spiritual truth is valid and many have have had to admit that." So back up your claim.

Or admit that you have nothing to back it up with.

Either works for me.

Weemaryanne said...

Say, Vera,

If belief is a choice, then why don't you choose to believe, or perhaps re-believe, in Santa Claus?

verandoug said...

Wrong. Most atheists were raised as believers.

Oops. I wasn't going back that far. But you are absolutely right. It is the same exact story over and over and over. I have heard it a million times with a few variations on the theme but it is basically stems from being around hypocrites, in particular hypocritical parents, and then in an effort to embrace anything that is truth, they took hold on science because it's tangible.

Interestingly, the disciples asked Jesus, "What will be the sign of your coming." Jesus' answer was true. He said, "Be careful that you be not deceived." We live in a day of great deception. It is hard to imagine that I am not deceived in some way in some area the way that so many people are deceived. Yet, I know that I have found much truth. In those areas, I like to share. I have sought the truth with all my heart and have found those that are hypocrites to not know Him but be workers of iniquity.

It is a shame. What these people should have done is to stay the course like I did. I have met that hypocrisy and ugly side of Christianity too often. Now both my husband and I know how to deal with it.

Vera

Weemaryanne said...

Watch yourself, Vera.

"....it is basically stems from being around hypocrites, in particular hypocritical parents, and then in an effort to embrace anything that is truth, they took hold on science because it's tangible...."

You'll have to take my word for it, V dear, but my parents were not hypocrites. They believed, my mother died a believer, and my elderly father continues to be a believer. Furthermore, with 1.5 high school educations between them, they weren't scientists either.

verandoug said...


If belief is a choice, then why don't you choose to believe, or perhaps re-believe, in Santa Claus?


The notion of Santa Clause, although a fun game for parents and their children, was probably the worst thing a parent could do to their child to tear down their child-like faith. We didn't do it to our children for that very reason. We saw the way it makes people feel stupid for believing as a child. We instead nurtured their faith and directed it toward the Living God. My son still remembers some of the prayers God answered when he was small. We were talking about it the other day.

Vera

Weemaryanne said...

Ah, but if child-like faith is such a good thing then it wouldn't need to be supplanted by, er, adult faith.

Adult faith which, in your case, can't stand alone and needs evidence to support it.

So, are you implying that child-like faith is useless because kids don't know anything therefore they can't point to the evidence supporting their faith?

But, hey, if the kids know the imaginary friend then what else would they need to know?

Either the kids' faith is the true faith, or yours is. Make up your mind.

(For comparison purposes: My sisters and brother also don't believe in Santa. But of the four of us, two are believers and two are atheists. So it would seem that the comedown of Santa doesn't necessarily "destroy child-like faith.")

verandoug said...

Leigh

objective documentation for claims of 'sin',

That is a naive comment. Murder is sin. Pedophilia is sin. Those are simply the places where you perhaps draw the line. Ever talk to a Muslim about Mohammed's pedophile activities and watch them justify this man's actions? They might think you a "bigot." It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that there are right ways to do things and wrong ways. In the context of sex, which is the topic we are dancing around, one woman and one man in a loving relationship makes for a good family and a healthy society. Every social worker I have ever talked to discusses problematic teens in terms of dysfunctional family problems that lend toward these behaviors. Dysfunctional does not include healthy family of one woman and one man in a loving relationship.

When this deity reveals some truth to you, do you call the media and set up interviews so that anyone can independently verify these truths and examine exactly how they were 'revealed' to you? No?

Did it ever occur to you that this would not be something God would direct us to do. For one thing, the news media would not portray these revelations in a positive light. They would portray them from their own perverted biased slant and paint a completely different picture than I was presenting. But since you trust them so much, that says a lot. This is yet another example of your naiveté.

Oh, the old Job claim. I thought you'd come up with better, but we'll go with this. Orion is a constellation, not a cluster, of stars. They appear to be in relation to each other to earthbound viewers. Actually, no relationship exists between the two, but the bible doesn't bother to point that out. Most likely because it is a book written by humans, from a human point of view, with no help from any deities.

The point is that there was no way for them to know these things for sure. Other holy books postulated on these things and got it wrong. The Bible isn't a science book. The apostle John stated that if everything that Jesus did were written down, the world couldn't contain all the books. That makes sense in light of His creative works.

The earth is circular. I could say that a ball is circular and still be correct. You are fishing for things to criticize as everyone does who tries to falsify the Bible. Attacking something in that way means that it can be proven true. That is what science is all about.

I weep for your lack of skepticism and critical thinking skills.

And I weep for your lack of faith.

Agreed with MaryAnn that most atheists were raised as believers and ..this is the good part.. RTB is doing it wrong. Science does not start with a premise and then try to prove the premise right, as RTB does.

That is a lie. The atheists are constantly imposing evolution on evidence that is conjecture at best and disregards the rest of the evidence.

How much investigation into RTB have done? Have you, for example, read any of their books?

Actually, I know biology pretty well. What is absurd is that with the massive amounts of scientific knowledge we have in this word that people would choose to believe the unscientific thought processes of people from thousands of years ago over what we have learned since.

Well if folks like you would stop attacking Christianity, they might sit awhile and listen. But every time you use your scientific arguments to belittle Christianity, Christians and God, the switch goes to the off position in their heads. They don't need your science to live day to day or to get into heaven. Most people could care less how many days the earth was created in or how things unfolded. They trust God that it happened the way He said it did and they are not that concerned with the particulars and that is all that they care about. I know because I have tried to share the things that I have learned about the world of nature matching the Word of God and although they respect me, they really aren't that interested.

Existence does not prove causation. I have a red car sitting in my drive way. That does not prove anything about the origins of that car, it only proves that there is a red car sitting on my drive way.

That is yet another naive statement from you. When archeologists go digging in the dirt for things that might be artifacts from past civilizations, they are looking for things that demonstrate that someone made them and they have no trouble saying so. A good example is the arrowhead or primitive hominid tools. This may look like it occurred naturally but to the trained eye, it is obvious that it was created. How much more the human eye or the reproductive system. How absurd to suggest that something that complicated was manufactured by nature. It is foolishness at its finest.

You didn't correct your logic, you only tried to circumvent your logic flaw by changing the direction of the conversation. If you know biology so well you will know that we do not 'experience death just like the animals'. We are animals.

You might be an animal and be as the beasts that perish. I am a human created in the image of God that will receive everlasting life. We have many aspects in common with the animals so that we can live in symbiosis with them. The argument that we should be something completely and totally different such as a green blooded Vulcan is yet another example of absurdity.

All views of gods are fairy tales. It is foolish and immature for anyone to expect anything from that which there is no evidence for existence.

That is your opinion and has nothing to do with reality. Even those who would assist people out of their narcotic addiction turn them toward God, first thing. In nursing, one of the questions that pops up on the NCLEX review is alcoholism and hands down, the answer is invariably to turn them over to one of these support groups. These support groups rely on God as a major aspect of the healing process. That is science, not Christianity.

I understand that you garnered all of this from your bible, but these are merely ascertains without evidence. I thought we covered this already.

I "garner" information from many avenues. There are two absolute truths. One is the record of nature. The other is the Word of God. The record of nature contains all physical truth and demonstrates God's invisible attributes. The Word of God contains all spiritual truth. Let's say that I come up with a hypothesis that the speed of light is not a constant. I look at other aspects of the record of nature and through this determine that the speed of light is a constant. Let's say that I come up with a spiritual idea such as apparitions of Mary being the real mother of Jesus. I compare my revelation to the Word of God to see if it is so and discover that it is not. This is how spiritual truth is tested and physical truth is tested.

The bible doesn't predict anything. Period. Ever.

That is your slighted opinion once again. Actually it does make very precise predictions that have come to pass.

it's a guess that anyone could make.

It isn't one thing but many. I only threw one pearl out there for you to trample.

Speaking of which, you have been antagonistic from the day you started posting here. If you aren't angry and bitter, then I would say that you need to fix your writing style because you come across as one who is bitter. You are so sure you're right.

Oh, it's apparent that you're a bigot.

And so are you against those who trust in God.

Please produce documented scientific evidence that witchcraft ever produced anything.

Let's start with human sacrifice.

Please produce documented scientific evidence for a satan,

How about someone as deceived as you are?

for the existence of a soul,

Psychology believes in the Superego (the conscience), the ego (the soul), and the ID (the flesh). Freud too must have done some reading in Scripture.

and for anyone to be able to sell said soul to this thing called satan.

You are prime example A.

Now, please produce a list of famous people with tons of money who have souls and have sold said soul to this satan dude.

Led Zepplin and Black Sabbath to start with. How about Marilyn Manson?

Please verify your claim before you present your 'evidence'. I'll be waiting, but please be aware that even if I live to be 100, I only have approximately 60 years to wait. Use your time wisely.

A clue! A clue! That must make you, oh say, 20 yo +/-?

How do you know anything you believe is true or not? All your thoughts and truths are just brain activity that might or might not promote survivability.

Vera

Weemaryanne said...

"...It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that there are right ways to do things and wrong ways..."

You mean, you needn't be a genius? Ordinary people can figure it out?

Why then, it doesn't take an imaginary friend, either, to find the right ways and wrong ways to do things.

You really should stop arguing both sides, Vera. It would be a lot less work.

I'm just sayin'.

Leigh said...

Vera,

That is a naive comment. Murder is sin. Pedophilia is sin.

Sin is a religious construct and nothing more. Murder is not always wrong. In your story book, your deity told Abraham to murder his own kid. If he would have gone through with it, would that have been wrong? For an example based in reality, consider a situation in which someone forces you to shoot an innocent child or else you will be shot. If you shoot the child then you have committed murder, but many would consider it justified since you did it in order to save yourself. There are gray areas there, ones that most fundies can not handle.

Pedophilia is wrong because it is detrimental to the emotional and possibly the physical health of the child involved.

Also, you quote mined me in order to take the snippet that you wanted and offer an insufficient strawman answer. If you don't have an adequate answer, then just admit it without resorting to cherry picking, or are you so used to doing that with your bible that it just comes naturally?


Ever talk to a Muslim about Mohammed's pedophile activities and watch them justify this man's actions?

Nope. Don't intend to.

They might think you a "bigot."

I wouldn't care. Unless they were going to blow me up or cut off my head. Then I would care.


It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that there are right ways to do things and wrong ways. In the context of sex, which is the topic we are dancing around, one woman and one man in a loving relationship makes for a good family and a healthy society.

We were dancing around the topic of sex? LOL !! I wasn't ! Where is your mind, Vera?

If all it takes is one man and one woman to make a healthy family and a healthy society then explain the divorce rates and domestic violence rates, also explain the rates of incest and child abuse in general among families with one man and one woman as parents. Don't tell me it's because they aren't christian, either. It happens across the board.

Every social worker I have ever talked to discusses problematic teens in terms of dysfunctional family problems that lend toward these behaviors. Dysfunctional does not include healthy family of one woman and one man in a loving relationship.

So let me get this straight. There are no dysfunctional families that include one man and one woman ? Only gays are dysfunctional, right Vera?


Did it ever occur to you that this would not be something God would direct us to do. For one thing, the news media would not portray these revelations in a positive light. They would portray them from their own perverted biased slant and paint a completely different picture than I was presenting. But since you trust them so much, that says a lot. This is yet another example of your naiveté.


Really? God told you not to go to the media and reveal to the rest of us these deep 'truths'? Wow !! What else does your god tell you, Vera? Did he whisper to you where Jimmy Hoffa is buried?

Where did I say I trust the media?

I'm naive, but you think god tells you special deep truths that you can't share with the rest of us lowly types because it's so deep we just wouldn't get it? Have you considered psychiatric medication ? There's no shame in it and it might help you.

The point is that there was no way for them to know these things for sure. Other holy books postulated on these things and got it wrong. The Bible isn't a science book. The apostle John stated that if everything that Jesus did were written down, the world couldn't contain all the books. That makes sense in light of His creative works.

No, that is not the point. The point is that you gave 2 examples and I showed how they are incorrect. Your holy book gets it just as wrong as any other, and I demonstrated to you how. You just ignore it and change the subject.


What difference does it make what John said? John, if he existed, was just another human like anybody else. Also, if Christ only lived 33 years like your book says and if you consider the entire surface area of the planet earth, I seriously doubt that any one person could do so much in 33 years that the entire planet could not hold all of his deeds if they were written down. Another fail.

The earth is circular. I could say that a ball is circular and still be correct. You are fishing for things to criticize as everyone does who tries to falsify the Bible. Attacking something in that way means that it can be proven true. That is what science is all about.

Here you have changed the wording of what you originally said in order to make it appear that you are correct when you are not. The bible verse you quoted said 'circle'. The earth is not a circle. It may appear to be so, but that does not make it so. Maybe god just isn't into being very geometrically precise.

There is no need to fish for things to criticize about your book, the errors are as easy to pick out as fish out of a barrel. Ask any good textural critic who is looking at the book from a stand point if textural and historical criticism and not starting with the assertion that it is inerrant. This is basic stuff taught in seminaries, Vera, not something you even have to look far to find.


Also, attacking something in any way does not mean it can be proven true. Some thing can be proven true only when objective evidence is sufficient for it to be proven true. I could attack the flat earth theory. That doesn't make it true.

Christians who are not familiar with textural critique of the bible often see it as an attack.

Also, that is not what science is 'all about'.


That is a lie. The atheists are constantly imposing evolution on evidence that is conjecture at best and disregards the rest of the evidence.

How much investigation into RTB have done? Have you, for example, read any of their books?


No, it is not a lie. Evolution could be proven wrong tomorrow, and it still wouldn't make creationism true.

I've done a good bit of investigation into RTB. Let's start out with one of their core beliefs, taken directly from their site:

We believe that the physical universe, the realm of nature, is the visible creation of God. It declares God's existence and gives a trustworthy revelation of God's character and purpose. In Scripture, God declares that through His creation all humanity recognizes His existence, power, glory, and wisdom. An honest study of nature -- its physical, biological, and social aspects -- can prove useful in a person's search for truth. Properly understood, God's Word (Scripture) and God's world (nature), as two revelations (one verbal, one physical) from the same God, will never contradict each other.

That is starting from a premise already believed to be true and looking for evidence to substantiate it instead of starting from an objective point of view and seeing if your premise is correct.

FAIL.

No, I haven't read any of their books. I have, however spent hours pouring over their website. Is there some deep truth in one of their books that they couldn't be bothered to put on their mess of a site?

Well if folks like you would stop attacking Christianity, they might sit awhile and listen.

Pointing out obvious flaws in something is seen as an attack. Typical fundy persecution syndrome. Isn't it odd how atheism/agnosticism is belittled by Christians all the time, but I don't see that as an 'attack'. Just another point of view.

But every time you use your scientific arguments to belittle Christianity, Christians and God, the switch goes to the off position in their heads. They don't need your science to live day to day or to get into heaven.

You're right. there is no heaven to get into, that's why. By the way, where is heaven, Vera?

Most people could care less how many days the earth was created in or how things unfolded. They trust God that it happened the way He said it did and they are not that concerned with the particulars and that is all that they care about.

Lack of critical thinking skills and healthy skepticism is a problem. Swallowing a belief system you've never questioned is the epitome of lazy thinking and shallow intellect.

I know because I have tried to share the things that I have learned about the world of nature matching the Word of God and although they respect me, they really aren't that interested.

There are probably a hundred different reasons why they aren't listening to you.


That is yet another naive statement from you. When archeologists go digging in the dirt for things that might be artifacts from past civilizations, they are looking for things that demonstrate that someone made them and they have no trouble saying so.

Just because you are looking for what or who made something does mean that the fact something exists is proof of what caused it to exist.

Let me say that again. Just because something exists does not mean that its existence is proof of what caused it to exist.


A good example is the arrowhead or primitive hominid tools. This may look like it occurred naturally but to the trained eye, it is obvious that it was created. How much more the human eye or the reproductive system. How absurd to suggest that something that complicated was manufactured by nature. It is foolishness at its finest.

I never said who made it. I said that THE FACT THAT IT EXISTS IS NOT PROOF OF WHO MADE IT.

The existence of primitive hominid tools DOES NOT PROVE THEIR CAUSATION. It does not tell us who made them.

The existence of the human eye DOES NOT TELL US WHO, OR WHAT, IF ANYTHING, MADE IT.

The existence of the reproductive system DOES NOT TELL US WHO, OR WHAT, IF ANYTHING, MADE IT.


You might be an animal and be as the beasts that perish. I am a human created in the image of God that will receive everlasting life.

Please provide objective, empirical evidence for the fact that you are not an animal like the rest of humanity and that a deity created you. Ditto for you claim of everlasting life. Until you do, you have merely made a claim without proof for said claim.


We have many aspects in common with the animals so that we can live in symbiosis with them. The argument that we should be something completely and totally different such as a green blooded Vulcan is yet another example of absurdity.

We have so many things in common with animals that ::gasp!::: we are animals.


That is your opinion and has nothing to do with reality. Even those who would assist people out of their narcotic addiction turn them toward God, first thing.

Wrong. Not everyone who helps people out of substance abuse turns towards a god, first thing. That some do is not proof that a god exists.

If we follow your logic the fact that AA exists proves god exists. No wonder you get so confused about causation.

In nursing, one of the questions that pops up on the NCLEX review is alcoholism and hands down, the answer is invariably to turn them over to one of these support groups. These support groups rely on God as a major aspect of the healing process. That is science, not Christianity.


There are also many support groups that have nothing to do with any 'higher power' claims. That is not science. It is simply a different way of approaching substance abuse.

I "garner" information from many avenues. There are two absolute truths. One is the record of nature. The other is the Word of God. The record of nature contains all physical truth and demonstrates God's invisible attributes. The Word of God contains all spiritual truth.

Please point to any scientific literature that is peer reviewed by mainstream scientific publications that might back up this claim. Until then, it is merely a claim with no proof.


Let's say that I come up with a hypothesis that the speed of light is not a constant. I look at other aspects of the record of nature and through this determine that the speed of light is a constant. Let's say that I come up with a spiritual idea such as apparitions of Mary being the real mother of Jesus. I compare my revelation to the Word of God to see if it is so and discover that it is not. This is how spiritual truth is tested and physical truth is tested.

Wrong, yet again. When the speed of light was discovered scientists first had to prove that fact with empirical, objective data. Looking for proof of apparitions is a false analogy because first you would have to prove that the existence of apparitions. The lack of empirical data for that alone takes your example out of the running as being a valid analogy. There are tons of things that had to be proven empirically before the speed of light could be proven. Your analogy can not stand up to the same scrutiny.

That is your slighted opinion once again. Actually it does make very precise predictions that have come to pass.

Name them. Keep in mind when you do that in order for something to truly be a prediction, it has to name a time and place and be very specific as to the events that are to transpire. Anything that could be guessed with a reasonable amount of certainly is not a prediction, it's a guess.


It isn't one thing but many. I only threw one pearl out there for you to trample.

Speaking of which, you have been antagonistic from the day you started posting here. If you aren't angry and bitter, then I would say that you need to fix your writing style because you come across as one who is bitter. You are so sure you're right.


You named something that has been proven to be false. If I trampled it, then it is because it is absolute nonsense and deserving of being trampled.

I said I wasn't angry and bitter towards a god. I am angry and bitter towards people that make claims for which they have no evidence and then present those claims as unbiased, objective fact. I make no secret of being angry and bitter towards those people.


And so are you against those who trust in God.

Wrong, yet AGAIN. I have many Christian friends whom I am not 'against'. They aren't bigots. They do not make claims for which they have no objective evidence to back up.


Let's start with human sacrifice.


Witchcraft did not produce human sacrifice. Humans with deluded ideas that witchcraft somehow has some sort of supernatural power produce human sacrifice.

By your logic Catholicism produces pedophilia.

How about someone as deceived as you are?


How about it? Please produce documented, scientific evidence that I am proof of satan.

Psychology believes in the Superego (the conscience), the ego (the soul), and the ID (the flesh). Freud too must have done some reading in Scripture.


Freud was an atheist. Please show me where the bible speaks directly of the ID, the ego and the superego. Also, there is much, much more to psychology than Freud.

Psychology is not proof of a soul.

You are prime example A.

Please provide objective, empirical evidence that I have a soul, that I have sold it to anyone, that a satan exists, and that I sold my soul to satan. I will wait patiently for you to produce this.


Led Zepplin and Black Sabbath to start with. How about Marilyn Manson?

Please provide objective, empirical evidence that any of these people mentioned have a soul, that a satan exists and that these people sold their souls at all, much less to satan.


How do you know anything you believe is true or not? All your thoughts and truths are just brain activity that might or might not promote survivability.

What I know to be true is true only to the extent that I know anything to be true. That is, through use of my senses and observation of emperical data. Things I believe are not the same as things that I know and either could be false. In light of new information, anything that I believe or claim to know is subject to change.

Now...about that proof, Vera. I'm still waiting.

Leigh said...

MaryAnn,

Why then, it doesn't take an imaginary friend, either, to find the right ways and wrong ways to do things.

LOLOL !! Exactly !! ;)

captain howdy said...

Vera, to me at least, one of the most offensive things about your ministry is that it seems to consist primarily of harassing people you don't like or agree with.

If atheists set up video cameras and harassed members of your church as they entered and exited you would be howling "we're being persecuted" at the top of your lungs. And yet, you think you have the God-given right to do that very same thing to others.

I found it especially offensive that your evangelism team harassed the workers at that abortion clinic, and then when they went back inside in disgust, you Christians broke out in howls of laughter, like you had just played the funniest joke in the world on them. Whenever anyone would try to enter your team would do everything in their power to get their faces on video tape.

When you're out engaging in these harassment and disruption tactics, does your team ever insinuate that the workers at these clinics had better watch their backs? Because if you do, it's my hope that you're all arrested.

Not everybody has an abortion because they're too lazy to take a birth control pill. Some women do it because they've been raped. Some do it because their doctor has told them to either have an abortion or die. And the last thing some pathetic 16-year-old who's been raped by her uncle needs is to have people like you and your husband screaming "murderer" at her or calling her names.

It's "persecution" when others do it to you. But it's OK for you to do it to others because you really really believe God agrees with you.

People like you are the American Taliban, Vera. Your ministry reveals a particularly ugly side of Christianity.

verandoug said...

Ah, but if child-like faith is such a good thing then it wouldn't need to be supplanted by, er, adult faith.

Not supplanted. Jesus said to become as a little child. Children trust their parents. In this case, they are trusting God.

Adult faith which, in your case, can't stand alone and needs evidence to support it.

But the evidence comes after the faith most of the time. Although with Thomas, Jesus did fill his need for evidence.

So, are you implying that child-like faith is useless because kids don't know anything therefore they can't point to the evidence supporting their faith?

I believe it is a quality they possess in abundance.

But, hey, if the kids know the imaginary friend then what else would they need to know?

He isn't imaginary, weemaryanne. He is quite real.

Either the kids' faith is the true faith, or yours is. Make up your mind.

Their faith is directed in the wrong direction. Mine is not.

(For comparison purposes: My sisters and brother also don't believe in Santa. But of the four of us, two are believers and two are atheists. So it would seem that the comedown of Santa doesn't necessarily "destroy child-like faith.")

Cool. So then you have two siblings that are saved that are praying for you??!! Hint hint. Do they know we are chatting?

Some children have a better capacity of reconciling the fact that it was just a game that mama and daddy thought would be fun and it was all for the fun of it. Others feel duped and stupid for believing. For the sake of the latter, we never did that. I do like the story of St. Nike.

Vera

verandoug said...

"...It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that there are right ways to do things and wrong ways..."

You mean, you needn't be a genius? Ordinary people can figure it out?

Why then, it doesn't take an imaginary friend, either, to find the right ways and wrong ways to do things.

You really should stop arguing both sides, Vera. It would be a lot less work.

I'm just sayin'.


What the Bible does is to reignite that conscience that gets buried under a hardened heart. One fallacy about sin is that we justify it. We say to ourselves, "In this situation, sin was the right thing to do. We feel guilty but then bury that guilt. The Law brings it back to the forefront of our minds so that we can repent of it and be reconciled to God. Knowing the Law won't change you though. It can't make you righteous. Only God's Spirit can accomplish this.

Vera

Weemaryanne said...

Vera, re yours of March 16, 2009 9:51 AM:

Poppycock. I've read the bible. Clearly it doesn't work the way you think it does.

I repeat my request of March 14, 2009 4:27 AM and March 15 6:49 AM:

Vera,

Citations please. Remember, you claimed "spiritual truth is valid and many have have had to admit that." So back up your claim.

Or admit that you have nothing to back it up with.

Either works for me.

Weemaryanne said...

Vera,

This is the fourth consecutive day that I've asked this question.
*************

I repeat my request of March 14, 2009 4:27 AM; March 15 6:49 AM; and March 16, 2009 11:55 AM:

You claimed "spiritual truth is valid and many have have had to admit that."

So: Back up your claim. Citations, please. How many is "many"? and what are their names? and what exactly did they say? and where was it published?

Or admit that you have nothing to back up your claim.

Either works for me.

Weemaryanne said...

Vera,

This is the fourth consecutive day that I've asked this question.
*************

I repeat my request of March 14, 2009 4:27 AM; March 15 6:49 AM; and March 16, 2009 11:55 AM:

You claimed (your comment to Leigh of March 13, 2009 6:24 AM) that "spiritual truth is valid and many have have had to admit that."

So: Back up your claim. Citations, please. How many is "many"? and what are their names? and what exactly did they say? and where was it published?

Or admit that you have nothing to back up your claim.

Either works for me.

Weemaryanne said...

Vera,

Fifth time 'round:
*******************

I repeat my request of March 14, 2009 4:27 AM; March 15 6:49 AM; March 16, 2009 11:55 AM; and March 17, 2009 11:47 AM:

You claimed (your comment to Leigh of March 13, 2009 6:24 AM) that "spiritual truth is valid and many have have had to admit that."

So: Back up your claim. Citations, please. How many is "many"? and what are their names? and what exactly did they say? and where was it published?

Or admit that you have nothing to back up your claim.

Either works for me.

verandoug said...

CH

I've been away from my desk for over a week.

Vera, to me at least, one of the most offensive things about your ministry is that it seems to consist primarily of harassing people you don't like or agree with.

We are protesting the murder of innocent children.

If atheists set up video cameras and harassed members of your church as they entered and exited you would be howling "we're being persecuted" at the top of your lungs. And yet, you think you have the God-given right to do that very same thing to others.

Wrong again. I would welcome them and try to convince them that they were not in right standing with God using all the knowledge and understanding God has given me through talking to you. I wouldn't think of them as a threat but a blessing that they all came to me so that I didn't have to come to them.

I found it especially offensive that your evangelism team harassed the workers at that abortion clinic, and then when they went back inside in disgust, you Christians broke out in howls of laughter, like you had just played the funniest joke in the world on them.

They were not laughing at them. They were laughing at the comment, "We'll turn this back into a church!"

Whenever anyone would try to enter your team would do everything in their power to get their faces on video tape.

Not their face but definitely their message.

When you're out engaging in these harassment and disruption tactics, does your team ever insinuate that the workers at these clinics had better watch their backs? Because if you do, it's my hope that you're all arrested.

Shocker. Not surprising from one that would steal away our freedoms of speech.

Not everybody has an abortion because they're too lazy to take a birth control pill. Some women do it because they've been raped. Some do it because their doctor has told them to either have an abortion or die. And the last thing some pathetic 16-year-old who's been raped by her uncle needs is to have people like you and your husband screaming "murderer" at her or calling her names.

That argument is really getting tiresome. You know and I know that the majority of abortions are for convenience. There have been people born in very bad situations that testify to God's greatness. Just because a person has erred doesn't mean we continue to err.

It's "persecution" when others do it to you. But it's OK for you to do it to others because you really really believe God agrees with you.

Thank God that you and your ilk have not completely overcome our society stealing away all our freedoms. You have mastered the public school and removed our freedom of speech there. Now you want to turn our society into a communist socialism run by the atheists where people are no longer allowed to assemble peaceably and speak their minds. God help us!

People like you are the American Taliban, Vera. Your ministry reveals a particularly ugly side of Christianity.

No, the atheists have the mastery in this country, not the Christians, which is evident everywhere. I know because I get out and actually talk to people.

Vera

verandoug said...

I am trying to make it through the 600 emails that are in my inbox. We went and took care of my parents for a few days and have had a lot of guests for the last weekend. So I couldn't get to my emails. Sorry bout that.

I will respond to Leigh asap. I had actually written part of it and then had to walk away and when I did, someone left the page I was on and my entry went bye bye. Such are the joys of Internet chatting. :-)

Vera

captain howdy said...

@vera--

Time doesn't permit a full reply, so for now:

Me: People like you are the American Taliban, Vera. Your ministry reveals a particularly ugly side of Christianity.

You: No, the atheists have the mastery in this country, not the Christians, which is evident everywhere. I know because I get out and actually talk to people.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

We have? Why do you suppose it is, then, that Christian organizations enjoy tax-exempt status while atheists don't? Why do you suppose it is that for the last 8 years the federal govt. refused to fund stem cell research? Do you suppose it was because we atheists blocked it, because like you said, we run everything?

One thing I know, Vera: You Christians scream persecution at the drop of a hat, but I don't recall seeing atheists, or evolution supporters, or abortionists coming up to your place of business, or gathering place, or house of worship with bullhorns harassing you in any of your videos.

But I see plenty of examples of you Christians doing it to others.

You're the Taliban. You're Westboro Baptist Church--except that you guys don't just hate homosexuals, you hate everybody!

verandoug said...

CH

We have? Why do you suppose it is, then, that Christian organizations enjoy tax-exempt status while atheists don't? Why do you suppose it is that for the last 8 years the federal govt. refused to fund stem cell research? Do you suppose it was because we atheists blocked it, because like you said, we run everything?

All those laws did were to keep the government from paying for the research, not stop the stem cell research. Private funding was allowed. There was plenty of research going on. It's just that the government is back to paying for it again thanks to people like you. God help you on the day of judgment.

ne thing I know, Vera: You Christians scream persecution at the drop of a hat, but I don't recall seeing atheists, or evolution supporters, or abortionists coming up to your place of business, or gathering place, or house of worship with bullhorns harassing you in any of your videos.


Persecution comes in many forms. If someone came to my home and tried to harm me, I would consider that persecution. If I'm out there on the streets preaching and someone spits on me, I would consider that persecution as well. But we love the dialogue that ensues after we preach and so we have no qualms about it, nor do we consider it persecution even if the person is angry. The reason these folks don't come to us to harass us is because they have no need to make a stand. They have full reign to sin up a storm and do what they want. So we warn them of the choices they are making because we have a right to do so in a public area.

You're the Taliban. You're Westboro Baptist Church--except that you guys don't just hate homosexuals, you hate everybody!

We hate sin because God hates sin. His Spirit in us has turned us from evil to righteousness by faith. People choose to sin. I hate the sin of the man that abuses his child as much as I hate the man that would murder a baby in the womb. I hate perversion and wickedness and love righteousness and holiness. As is perfectly predicted by the Bible in 2 Timothy 3, the world is full of people that love pleasure more than they love God and are despisers of those that do good. The Bible said it first.
Vera

Leigh said...

We hate sin because God hates sin. His Spirit in us has turned us from evil to righteousness by faith. People choose to sin. I hate the sin of the man that abuses his child as much as I hate the man that would murder a baby in the womb. I hate perversion and wickedness and love righteousness and holiness. As is perfectly predicted by the Bible in 2 Timothy 3, the world is full of people that love pleasure more than they love God and are despisers of those that do good. The Bible said it first.
Vera


What depth of BS do you have to reach before I lend you a shove to dig yourself out? You do not hate 'sin', you and those like you are social busybodies who pick a favorite 'sin' and decide that you are going to stick your self righteous proboscis into the daily lives of other people because you feel a sense of entitlement to do so.

If you truly hated all sin, you would be out screaming at people about lying, over eating, not honoring their father and mother and a thousand other little nitpicking 'sins' that your deity supposedly abhors. But no, you pick things like homosexuality and abortion and decide that you are going to attempt to run ramshod over the rights of others in your attempts to have laws changed in order to prevent certain 'sins'.

Do you really think you are proving anything when you repeatedly type 'The bible said it first?' You aren't. Who cares what the bible said? The bible also says "Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones." I'd a hell of a lot rather see an infant aborted than have it dashed against stones. Wait for it....that verse is out of context, or somehow doesn't mean what it actually says, etc. Yep, that's coming. All apologetics allows you to do is to interpret a verse in a certain way so that you can cry foul when someone points out to you the disgusting nature of that crap book you worship.

ImaCamerican said...

I can't help but stick up for people like Vera. I admit totally that I am not a Christian because I believe if I was to call myself a Christian I would be a hypocrite. What bothers me is that people call themselves Christian when they are not. I would love to follow the street preachers around just so I could stand there and say "hey, just admit you’re not acting as a Christian should, really, just admit it and move on with your life." What's so hard about that? Instead they swear and abuse people who actually do follow Christian doctrine. They spit on them and throw things at them. Why are they SO angry at people telling them, they're not doing it right. They're not lying about it. They're not making things up. "Sinners" say again and again that God loves them and Jesus loves them and they are forgiven for there sins. Well my parents loved me but they still didn't want me smoking pot. They didn't want me sleeping around. They didn't want me swearing at people or abusing people. And I know for a fact that if all I did was say sorry at night and do it all again the next day, I wasn't forgiven for it. If you don't believe then fine, but don't say you do and then ignore the rules you don't like.

I know that smoking is wrong. I know I shouldn't do it. When people tell me it will kill me, I don't go after them like they've just thrown fire on me. I'm weak and I'm addicted and I admit it.
I can't go around telling people I'm a non-smoker with a smoke in my hand. That is what most so called Christians do.

Do I believe that there is a possibility God exists. Sure, and I don't think science disproves it anymore then it proves it. If there was a 'big bang' then something started it, maybe that something is God. Maybe God started the expanding gasses that swirled around stars and created planets. Maybe he created the dinosaurs and they became extinct for a reason. Maybe we evolved the way we did for a reason. You know what makes me think there is a God... Humans. We are so different from all other life forms on this planet that it makes me think there may be a reason for our existence. Maybe God wanted an animal it could eventually talk with. Maybe he's putting humans though all this evolution so we can eventually meet him and have a true understanding of the works of life. Maybe that's why we've learned Mathematics.

I've heard some preachers use buildings as an example of there being a creator. Well men didn't start off by building skyscrapers. Our building skills had to 'evolve' so why can't the works of God also have to evolve. Really if we were created knowing everything and being perfect and "sinless" then there really would be no point to life. So maybe God created the universe to create something that has a purpose, just like our ancestors who learned to build the first human shelter. Didn't God make us in his image. Well people, that's awfully close to what God's been doing isn't it? And maybe God can't prove he exists or answer every prayer because like everything else in the universe, there are laws even he must follow. We've barely scratched the surface of the laws of science and mathematics. How could we ever expect to really know the laws of God. Is the bible perfect? We can't ever be positive, but there's a lot of common sense truth to almost everything in it. Lets be honest, being that good of a person is difficult and pretty "boring" but that doesn't make it wrong. In basics it tells us to be good to each other, be good to ourselves and be happy with what we have and avoid excess. People just don't like to admit they're not doing those things because they just don't want to. They want that BMW and that hot chick and getting high. They want to do it all with the least amount of work possible and they want to get away with it.

That's honest. Sinful (no matter what religion) but honest.

What I think is the worst sin out of all of them is we're never happy with what we get. We only end up wanting more and more and more and because of it, we're never really happy.

captain howdy said...

Me: Why do you suppose it is, then, that Christian organizations enjoy tax-exempt status while atheists don't? Why do you suppose it is that for the last 8 years the federal govt. refused to fund stem cell research? Do you suppose it was because we atheists blocked it, because like you said, we run everything?

You: All those laws did were to keep the government from paying for the research, not stop the stem cell research. Private funding was allowed. There was plenty of research going on. It's just that the government is back to paying for it again thanks to people like you. God help you on the day of judgment.

~~~~~~~~~~~

"Yeah, all we did is make it impossible for that potentially life-saving research to be funded in the US, since it's so expensive to conduct. It's not like we arrested any scientists or anything!"

Thanks to religious fanatics like you, who knows how many people that research could have helped that are beyond help now? Maybe Christopher Reeve could have been helped, but because you self-appointed morality police blocked the funding of stem cell research, he had no hope. But hey, who cares about that, right? We can't have you Bible-bangers getting your shorts in a knot, so screw Christopher Reeve--and anybody like him!






The reason these folks don't come to us to harass us is because they have no need to make a stand. They have full reign to sin up a storm and do what they want. So we warn them of the choices they are making because we have a right to do so in a public area.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Just like Westboro Baptist Church. You probably consider that a compliment, don't you?




Oh--You made the claim that "...the atheists have the mastery in this country, not the Christians, which is evident everywhere." I asked you if that is so, why is it that Christian groups enjoy tax exempt status but not atheist groups?

I don't remember what your reply was. Could you run it by me again?

Here's another question for you: I live in one of the largest states in the nation. I cannot hold any elected state position solely because I'm an atheist. Please explain why that is, if we atheists have mastery in this country like you say?



blach. (That was the word verification).

Weemaryanne said...

Vera,

Sixth time 'round:

*******************

I repeat my request of:
- March 14, 2009 4:27 AM;
- March 15, 2009 6:49 AM;
- March 16, 2009 11:55 AM;
- March 17, 2009 11:47 AM;
and
- March 22, 2009 2:38 PM:

You claimed (your comment to Leigh of March 13, 2009 6:24 AM) that "spiritual truth is valid and many have have had to admit that."

So: Back up your claim. Citations, please. How many is "many"? and what are their names? and what exactly did they say? and where was it published?

Or admit that you have nothing to back up your claim.

Either works for me.

While you're at it, please explain what "spiritual truth" is; and how one demonstrates it; and what evidence one uses to support it; and what predictions it makes and what tests have been done to verify/falsify such predictions.

Or admit that "spiritual truth" is merely a meaningless phrase and promise to stop using it.

Either works for me.

**************
Aside: With respect to your exchange with Captain Howdy, I'm very interested to learn which atheists have "mastery" as you claim and how you know it.

I'm all a-tingle over this mystery. Who could it be and what evidence will our Vera produce to prove their mastery of the United States of America?

The President?
The Congress?
The United Nations?
The Pope?
The Devil?

-- Oh, wait, Ole Scratch doesn't count because he's not an atheist, is he. So never mind that one. --

The Illuminati?
The Atlanteans?
The Massachusetts Witches?

-- Well, technically they wouldn't be atheists either, since any believer in Satan is necessarily a believer in your imaginary friend as well. Never mind that one, either. --

*********
You're stacking up the unsupported claims like pancakes at a charity breakfast, Vera dear. Better pull out some evidence for at least some of 'em.

verandoug said...

Leigh

If you truly hated all sin, you would be out screaming at people about lying, over eating, not honoring their father and mother and a thousand other little nitpicking 'sins' that your deity supposedly abhors. But no, you pick things like homosexuality and abortion and decide that you are going to attempt to run ramshod over the rights of others in your attempts to have laws changed in order to prevent certain 'sins'.

Who says?

Do you really think you are proving anything when you repeatedly type 'The bible said it first?' You aren't. Who cares what the bible said? The bible also says "Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones." I'd a hell of a lot rather see an infant aborted than have it dashed against stones. Wait for it....that verse is out of context, or somehow doesn't mean what it actually says, etc. Yep, that's coming. All apologetics allows you to do is to interpret a verse in a certain way so that you can cry foul when someone points out to you the disgusting nature of that crap book you worship.

I bet you would, which is why God will be happy to return the favor.

Vera

verandoug said...

ImaCamerican,

I am blown away by your post. It is so full of wisdom and understanding. You, my friend, are not far from the kingdom of God. Very few people really honestly understand what the Bible teaches on sin issues and you are so right, that America's #1 problem is covetousness wanting more and more and more. We are never satisfied.

Let me just tell you one thing. When sin is holding us, we are incapable of getting free. Repentance, or a change of mind about that sin, is the starting place seeing it as an offense between you and God. What I did when I used to smoke back some 30 years ago, I wanted to be free from it and told God I couldn't. The dynamic is actually taking the first step by not buying the cigarettes and then asking the Holy Spirit to take it from there. From that point forward, I had no desire for cigarettes again. The Holy Spirit's job is to give us power to overcome. That is what grace really is. It gives me the ability to do more than I can do on my own to the point that there is no desire for a cigarette, lying, cheating, stealing, or sexual deviation even if it would be easy to do so. I just don't want it. By God imparting His own divine nature into me, I have that strength and the mind of Christ. The Word of God plays a huge role in this. I find that the more of the Bible I take in, the more I am able to learn and do. Interestingly, suffering brings more power as well. Paul noted that. God's power is made perfect in our weakness.

I will be praying for you!!

Vera

verandoug said...

CH

Thanks to religious fanatics like you, who knows how many people that research could have helped that are beyond help now? Maybe Christopher Reeve could have been helped, but because you self-appointed morality police blocked the funding of stem cell research, he had no hope. But hey, who cares about that, right? We can't have you Bible-bangers getting your shorts in a knot, so screw Christopher Reeve--and anybody like him!

What kind of argument is this, CH? A baby has to give up its life for Christopher Reeve? Pulease. There has been better research done of late that works a lot better than the original research generating stem cells from the person himself using hair. They have made tremendous strides in this area including regenerating pancreatic cells. When you introduce foreign materials into a person, you always run the risk of rejection. But with this technique, that is no longer a problem because it is the same construction and DNA. So it is a huge leap forward. The only reason science went down that trail is because Christians held them to a standard, which is our role in science. That is what we are called to do so that science does not run roughshod over everyone. Another example might be doing experiments on people like the Nazis did for scientific purposes.


The reason these folks don't come to us to harass us is because they have no need to make a stand. They have full reign to sin up a storm and do what they want. So we warn them of the choices they are making because we have a right to do so in a public area.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Just like Westboro Baptist Church. You probably consider that a compliment, don't you?


I don't see that Westboro is always acting as God would have them act. Aren't they the ones that protest at funerals of the military that have died. I find that reprehensible. They wouldn't have the freedoms they have were it not for these soldiers. So no, I do not stand with them.

Oh--You made the claim that "...the atheists have the mastery in this country, not the Christians, which is evident everywhere." I asked you if that is so, why is it that Christian groups enjoy tax exempt status but not atheist groups?

I don't remember what your reply was. Could you run it by me again?


So far, the atheists haven't organized themselves into a church. They are anti-religion and their religious views are upheld above everyone else's. In that way, the moral compass of this nation no longer exists.

Here's another question for you: I live in one of the largest states in the nation. I cannot hold any elected state position solely because I'm an atheist. Please explain why that is, if we atheists have mastery in this country like you say?

What is that? Utah? I can't imagine that this ruling still exists in any other state. But if it does, praise God! I am glad. To the best of my knowledge, I only know of one or two Christians in politics that are genuine Christians. Everyone's a Christian only nobody's a Christian. Shoot, you could be like Bill and Hillary and get your pic taken with the Pope. http://i.abcnews.com/GMA/popup?id=4649691&contentIndex=1&page=11&start=false What a couple of hypocrites!

Vera

Leigh said...

Who says?

Well, I believe if you look right up above the comment you'll see a name that is underlined. That would be the person who wrote the comment, thus the person who said it, thus ...ME.

And not that you would answer a question, because when you are proven wrong repeatedly you just stop answering; but why are you not out at McDonald's picketing gluttony? You've said before that you go where the sin is. I'm sure you could find a fast food restaurant, or any restaurant for that matter, where people are stuffing themselves.

Also, why not protest in front of daycare centers and elementary schools? You say you go where the sin is and I'm sure there's a lot of sinning going on there with all that 'not honoring your father and mother' stuff that kids do.

Nursing homes would be another good target for your roaming band if bible thugs. After all, a lot of those people are just wallowing in sloth. You could also target vacation resorts to fulfill your sloth quota.

Now, here's where I'm really going to help you out. I'm thinking mass protests in front of banks. This is a great time to get the word out about greed, so I'm thinking you guys should be out in front of AIG in hoards.

Don't just pick 1 or 2 'sins', Vera ! Be a super-duper Christian and go for them all !!

I bet you would, which is why God will be happy to return the favor.

Ooooooooo !!! A thinly veiled reference to the bad fiery place! Oh no !!

Vera, where is hell? If hell is a physical place then why haven't we found it yet? Where is heaven? If heaven is a physical place then why haven't we found it yet?

Think about it, in the bible the tower of Babel folks must have been mighty close to heaven since God got all nervous and came 'down' and kicked over their tower. But yet we put up satellites and skyscrapers and space shuttles and God doesn't knock those down? How come, Vera??

I think that if these places are physical places then I have nothing to fear. After all, supposedly when I die I am a spirit rather than a body, so I wouldn't have any nerve endings to feel the pain and torture of hell, right? Or did God somehow give spirits nerve endings, too?

Now, if I'm going to retain my physical body and burn in hell, that's ok, too. Think about it. A physical body, even in a house fire, can only burn for what? Maybe a few minutes before being completely consumed. So even in hell, which surely burns hotter than any old house fire, I'd only burn for a few seconds before the fire consumed me completely and I'd no longer exist to feel any pain. Or is that not how it works? Does God suddenly suspend the laws of physics so that my physical body would not be consumed and my nerve endings would not burn to the point of not being able to transmit pain signals to my brain ?

Vera, darling, you have all the answers. Please explain the exact location and mechanisms of hell. If you don't know, just please ask God for some of the special secrets you say he bestows upon you. I'm sure he'd be glad to tell you so that you can impart this wisdom to us lowly types.

ImaCamerican said...

" I live in one of the largest states in the nation. I cannot hold any elected state position solely because I'm an atheist."

I think if you did what most of the elected officals do you could. You just lie. You say you believe in god even if you're not really doing as you say. That really bugs me. People like my Mom who will tell people she believes but when we're alone she admits the truth. She really doesn't know either. I think most are agnostic at best but know it's not heathy for their positions to actually admit that.

If your are in politics you should be honest right? But if you hook these people up to a lie detector I wonder what you'd end up with.

As for stem cells, I kinda think it might be good for people to at least try to find them another way. Yes it would be easier and faster to get the embriotic cells, but there are people out there trying to make them another way and I think that is a good thing. If people always do what's easiest, then you don't end up with true knowledge.

You do have to admit it's a touchy subject because the beliefs of the people vary. They're not trying to hurt people with their actions. They truely believe this is the killing of children. Now if someone tried to kill a 5 year old, wouldn't you be just as angry?

Leigh said...

IC,

I think if you did what most of the elected officals do you could. You just lie.

OR, we could just change the bigoted laws on the books so that a person's religion or lack thereof does not play any factor at all in who gets elected to public office. Problem solved.

Now if someone tried to kill a 5 year old, wouldn't you be just as angry?

An embryo and a 5 year old are NOT the same thing. You analogy failed hard.

ImaCamerican said...

Leigh
What if heaven and hell are outside of our universe? We pretty much know now the universe isn't infinite right? So there is a possibility something is outside of it. What is our universe expanding into?

You're asking Vera to prove something that a scientist probably couldn't prove. Doesn't mean it's not there. We didn't know about Dark Matter a few decades back but now we do.

As for protesting at the places you speak of. I don't see a lot of people who don't belive in the war going to just any place to make their point, why should they be any different.

If you believe something is wrong, why can't you speak out about it? You call them "bible thugs" but all they are doing is telling you, your actions are wrong. Sure they're using a megaphone, but they're not using stones. They're not burning the witches like people used to do.

There are lots of people that don't stand beside them because their lazy or just don't care. We should all be going to the banks and calling them out for their greed. Why aren't people doing it?

So here is a group of people who actually get off thier butts and try to DO something and for that you call them "thugs". How is that fair?

Leigh said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Leigh said...

IC,

What if heaven and hell are outside of our universe? We pretty much know now the universe isn't infinite right? So there is a possibility something is outside of it. What is our universe expanding into?

What if? Well, what if? But in short, NO, we do not know for certain that the universe is not infinite.

Now, if the universe IS finite and God is outside the universe, then God can not intervene inside the universe because he is outside of it. I suggest that you research your arguments before you try them out.




You're asking Vera to prove something that a scientist probably couldn't prove. Doesn't mean it's not there. We didn't know about Dark Matter a few decades back but now we do.

Vera makes claims. The burden of proof is on the one making the claim. I, and others, have asked her repeatedly to back up her claims. She can't , but still makes them.

Yes, the fact that we do not know certain things does not exclude the possibility that they exist. Possibility, however, does not necessarily correlate with probability. There is a possibility that God, heaven and hell exist. However, in the absence of any evidence that they do, the possibility is so remote, the probability so low, that they most likely do not exist.


As for protesting at the places you speak of. I don't see a lot of people who don't belive in the war going to just any place to make their point, why should they be any different.

This conversation is not about war protests and attempting to change the subject in order to prove your point will not work.


If you believe something is wrong, why can't you speak out about it? You call them "bible thugs" but all they are doing is telling you, your actions are wrong. Sure they're using a megaphone, but they're not using stones. They're not burning the witches like people used to do.

LOL ! Are you serious ? They aren't using stones so that makes their behavior ok? They aren't burning anybody so that makes it ok?

Saying that something is wrong according to your personal opinion and stating for a fact that it is wrong according to the unproved premise that a deity exists that has said it is wrong are two totally different things.

Also, if these people wanted to simply state that something was wrong, they could walk up, say "Hey, I think what you are doing here is wrong" and walk away. Harassing people with megaphones is not the same thing.

There are lots of people that don't stand beside them because their lazy or just don't care. We should all be going to the banks and calling them out for their greed. Why aren't people doing it?

First of all the word is they're, not their.

I don't know why 'most' people aren't doing it, but I wasn't talking about most people. Again, if you are going to protest 'sin', then protest all sins or you are a hypocrite for protesting only the chosen few that are your pet sins.


So here is a group of people who actually get off thier butts and try to DO something and for that you call them "thugs". How is that fair?

It's not that they are doing something it's what they are doing and the way they are doing it that angers myself and others.

Fair? Fair has nothing to do with it.

ImaCamerican said...

"OR, we could just change the bigoted laws on the books so that a person's religion or lack thereof does not play any factor at all in who gets elected to public office. Problem solved"

I don't think the problem would be solved because the people who vote base their votes on religion. No law is going to get everyone to be fair and vote on actual ability. That's a sad fact of today and why I think people lie about it to get elected.

"An embryo and a 5 year old are NOT the same thing. You analogy failed hard."

My point was to them it IS the same thing. You and I might not think it is but to them it is no different so I can understand their protest. This is my opinion, nothing more. I tend to be able to understand many sides of an issue. I don't assume to have as much knowledge about them as some, just my opinion.

"Now, if the universe IS finite and God is outside the universe, then God can not intervene inside the universe because he is outside of it. I suggest that you research your arguments before you try them out."

I think you've assumed I believe God can intervene; here is something I posted earlier...

...And maybe God can't prove he exists or answer every prayer because like everything else in the universe, there are laws even he must follow.

Why would I need to research something that is just an opinion, an idea, a suggestion...

"This conversation is not about war protests and attempting to change the subject in order to prove your point will not work."

You brought up the 'protesting' subject so how is that changing it? Do you not think that what they do is "protesting" and equal to what war protesters do? That was the point I was trying to make. You don't have to believe in what they say but they should be allowed to say it.
"LOL ! Are you serious ? They aren't using stones so that makes their behavior ok? They aren't burning anybody so that makes it ok?"

My point was that the people they are preaching to ARE throwing stones, and liquids and obscenities at them when they're only using WORDS. Words they believe in and are important enough to them to go out and face the hostility they receive. So I respect that.

"Saying that something is wrong according to your personal opinion and stating for a fact that it is wrong according to the unproved premise that a deity exists that has said it is wrong are two totally different things"

Not if the person saying them believes in that deity. You're asking for proof, but religion doesn't deal with proof it deals with faith. I'm just saying that not having any proof they are right doesn't make them wrong unless you have proof they are wrong.

Now some people believe the bible word for word, and there is some proof that it's not true. I tend to look at the bible in the context of who it was written for and the time it was written. I don't think (me personally) that God would have written the book in a scientific language for people who knew nothing of science. If he wants humans to learn these things on our own, he wouldn't give away the answers that easily. However there are a lot of things in the Bible that seem to be written in an almost scientific code that can be better understood now that we have more information.

Look, I don't know if there is a God or not, or if the Bible is true or not. I'm just willing to listen to both sides and I find both sides interesting. I also like to share what I think and what I have opinions about. I don’t try to pawn off my opinions as being highly educated and well researched. I just like to talk about them which is kind of the point of blogging. Or am I wrong?

I would like to know however why you felt it important to point out I have bad grammar. Were you trying to show my inadequacy in order to demean my opinion or did you have trouble understanding my points because of it?

verandoug said...

weemaryanne

Thank you for your perseverance. You would make a great Christian. :-) I have just been a bit busy these last few weeks and took my computer time to answer some questions on a different topic elsewhere but I'm here again.

You claimed (your comment to Leigh of March 13, 2009 6:24 AM) that "spiritual truth is valid and many have have had to admit that."

So: Back up your claim. Citations, please. How many is "many"? and what are their names? and what exactly did they say? and where was it published?


Interestingly, some comments right here in this blog demonstrate this. Guilt, conviction, a drawing toward God are all proofs of the spiritual world.

While you're at it, please explain what "spiritual truth" is; and how one demonstrates it; and what evidence one uses to support it; and what predictions it makes and what tests have been done to verify/falsify such predictions.

Just like in nature, we use physical elements to determine truth, the Bible is the sole source of spiritual truth. We may have all sorts of ideas about God but when we compare those ideas against the Bible, do they fit? Is our ideology correct or not? We can't use the physical elements of the world to test the spiritual. Paul tells us this here:

1 Cor. 2:14 says, "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

Might I add that your attitude perfectly fits this prediction. You believe that spiritual things are foolishness.

Richard Dawkins was ministered a benevolent loving God who is all charitable and sweet. Then he reads the Bible and finds a completely different God. Instead of recognizing that God was revealing truth to him about who He is, Richard declares the whole thing a fraud. The truth is that God isn't all benevolent. Part of Him is terrifying.

Did you know that God's invisible attributes are clearly seen from the creation of the world in the things that are made. Many people have proposed that t-rex didn't develop until after the fall of man. I don't think so. I think God is every bit as terrifying in His wrath as that creature. He is also as sweet and kind as any gentle creature. He is busy and diligent as the ant.

Aside: With respect to your exchange with Captain Howdy, I'm very interested to learn which atheists have "mastery" as you claim and how you know it.

The religious views of atheists take precedence over every other religious group in this nation in the public schools and we are reaping the consequences. If you have control of the youth, you pretty much have control at the family level. You don't even need to run for public office to take control once you have the children.

Vera

verandoug said...

weemaryanne

Thank you for your perseverance. You would make a great Christian. :-) I have just been a bit busy these last few weeks and took my computer time to answer some questions on a different topic elsewhere but I'm here again.

You claimed (your comment to Leigh of March 13, 2009 6:24 AM) that "spiritual truth is valid and many have have had to admit that."

So: Back up your claim. Citations, please. How many is "many"? and what are their names? and what exactly did they say? and where was it published?


Interestingly, some comments right here in this blog demonstrate this. Guilt, conviction, a drawing toward God are all proofs of the spiritual world.

While you're at it, please explain what "spiritual truth" is; and how one demonstrates it; and what evidence one uses to support it; and what predictions it makes and what tests have been done to verify/falsify such predictions.

Just like in nature, we use physical elements to determine truth, the Bible is the sole source of spiritual truth. We may have all sorts of ideas about God but when we compare those ideas against the Bible, do they fit? Is our ideology correct or not? We can't use the physical elements of the world to test the spiritual. Paul tells us this here:

1 Cor. 2:14 says, "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

Might I add that your attitude perfectly fits this prediction. You believe that spiritual things are foolishness.

Richard Dawkins was ministered a benevolent loving God who is all charitable and sweet. Then he reads the Bible and finds a completely different God. Instead of recognizing that God was revealing truth to him about who He is, Richard declares the whole thing a fraud. The truth is that God isn't all benevolent. Part of Him is terrifying.

Did you know that God's invisible attributes are clearly seen from the creation of the world in the things that are made. Many people have proposed that t-rex didn't develop until after the fall of man. I don't think so. I think God is every bit as terrifying in His wrath as that creature. He is also as sweet and kind as any gentle creature. He is busy and diligent as the ant.

Aside: With respect to your exchange with Captain Howdy, I'm very interested to learn which atheists have "mastery" as you claim and how you know it.

The religious views of atheists take precedence over every other religious group in this nation in the public schools and we are reaping the consequences. If you have control of the youth, you pretty much have control at the family level. You don't even need to run for public office to take control once you have the children.

Vera

verandoug said...

Leigh

I have another very lengthy post you wrote a while back to get to, which I will. Be assured. Please know that I am onto that tactic. Been there; done that. Anyway, be assured that I don't lie. I wasn't around for a week and you weren't the priority at the time. Not to mention that my reply was deleted after I stepped away from the computer for a minute. That happens with lengthy replies. You know what I mean?

Who says?

Well, I believe if you look right up above the comment you'll see a name that is underlined. That would be the person who wrote the comment, thus the person who said it, thus ...ME.


Well since you are nobody, then we will chuck that one. Thanks so much for the clarification.

And not that you would answer a question, because when you are proven wrong repeatedly you just stop answering; but why are you not out at McDonald's picketing gluttony? You've said before that you go where the sin is. I'm sure you could find a fast food restaurant, or any restaurant for that matter, where people are stuffing themselves.

I love comments like this with lots of declarations of victory where none exists. But you go right on reveling in your victory. LOL You do realize you are on the losing team which is why I have the answers and you don't?

Also, why not protest in front of daycare centers and elementary schools?

For those occasions, we stand out front and hand out Bibles.

You say you go where the sin is and I'm sure there's a lot of sinning going on there with all that 'not honoring your father and mother' stuff that kids do.

Our banners contain many admonitions on many different sins, not just sexual deviance. We preach on the same things.

Nursing homes would be another good target for your roaming band if bible thugs. After all, a lot of those people are just wallowing in sloth. You could also target vacation resorts to fulfill your sloth quota.

How stupid.

Now, here's where I'm really going to help you out. I'm thinking mass protests in front of banks. This is a great time to get the word out about greed, so I'm thinking you guys should be out in front of AIG in hoards.

I agree.

Don't just pick 1 or 2 'sins', Vera ! Be a super-duper Christian and go for them all !!

That's right because all liars will be cast into the lake of fire as well. We address many different sins, not just the ones you seem to be into.

I bet you would, which is why God will be happy to return the favor.

Ooooooooo !!! A thinly veiled reference to the bad fiery place! Oh no !!


I do believe we were discussing an earthly judgment but I would be happy to help you understand an eternal one.

Vera, where is hell? If hell is a physical place then why haven't we found it yet? Where is heaven? If heaven is a physical place then why haven't we found it yet?

You can test the physical things that are made with scientific equipment but not the spiritual realm. Those are spiritually discerned and God has already declared it to you. Since I have never been to either heaven or hell, I couldn't exactly give you the address. Eye has not seen nor ear heard the things that God has in store for those who love Him. In hell, there will be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth. But that is what you as a freewill agent choose for eternity.

Think about it, in the bible the tower of Babel folks must have been mighty close to heaven since God got all nervous and came 'down' and kicked over their tower. But yet we put up satellites and skyscrapers and space shuttles and God doesn't knock those down? How come, Vera??

We finally spread out across the globe for one thing. And also to stop man from annihilating himself.

I think that if these places are physical places then I have nothing to fear. After all, supposedly when I die I am a spirit rather than a body, so I wouldn't have any nerve endings to feel the pain and torture of hell, right? Or did God somehow give spirits nerve endings, too?

Haven't you ever experienced inner torment? From the description of the rich man in hell's fire, he is tormented in the flame and experiencing thirst that cannot be quenched.

There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Now, if I'm going to retain my physical body and burn in hell, that's ok, too. Think about it. A physical body, even in a house fire, can only burn for what? Maybe a few minutes before being completely consumed. So even in hell, which surely burns hotter than any old house fire, I'd only burn for a few seconds before the fire consumed me completely and I'd no longer exist to feel any pain. Or is that not how it works? Does God suddenly suspend the laws of physics so that my physical body would not be consumed and my nerve endings would not burn to the point of not being able to transmit pain signals to my brain ?

Why not just repent of your sins and come live with us in paradise where God says your eyes have never seen, nor your ears ever heard nor has ever entered your mind the wonders of heaven.

Vera, darling, you have all the answers. Please explain the exact location and mechanisms of hell.

See this web site. Hell is in the center of the earth.
http://www.av1611.org/hell.html

If you don't know, just please ask God for some of the special secrets you say he bestows upon you. I'm sure he'd be glad to tell you so that you can impart this wisdom to us lowly types.


You know one of the secrets is that we are just abiding our time through this present mess. The Bible says in the last days that everything that can be shaken, will be shaken. I know we're shaking. I wonder if you're shaking. The US is shaking. So we stand on the Rock that cannot be shaken, Jesus Christ. There's room for you.

Vera

verandoug said...

I think if you did what most of the elected officals do you could.

The reason our founding fathers wrote the Constitution and the amendments is because they said it wouldn't work unless you have a moral society. They believed if a person was not a Christian, he couldn't be moral.

When are you going to join the real Christian club? :-)

The Bible always talks about a remnant, which are not the people who call themselves the people of God. They're the people out there advancing the kingdom of God. There's a big difference.

Doug and Vera

verandoug said...

An embryo and a 5 year old are NOT the same thing. You analogy failed hard.

Yeah sure. =8-/ It's a five year difference. How many kids have we aborted in this country that may have come up with an alternative to solve the fuel dilemma in our country? What if God knew we were going to run into a problem, so He gave certain children that ability to solve it and we went ahead and killed them? The Bible says that God knew us before we were in our mother's womb. How many Einsteins or Mozarts were there? Do you know that the only people group that is increasing is the Muslims? Do you know that the French and the Italians are heading toward extinction?

Vera

ImaCamerican said...

"so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence."

Things can pass from the core to the surface. The volcano itself proves that, but cosmic rays are another, they can pass through anything.

This is one of my crises of faith. I just can't believe Heaven or Hell is part of the physical realm.

Like I've mentioned before, I look at the Bible as being written for children with limited understanding but with clues within for more mature minds. However, I have not truly studied the Bible in quite some time so my understanding is somewhat limited.

ImaCamerican said...

"The reason our founding fathers wrote the Constitution and the amendments is because they said it wouldn't work unless you have a moral society. They believed if a person was not a Christian, he couldn't be moral."

True, but I do think people can be "moral" without having to be Christian. Still it's hard to find someone who fits the true definition of moral no matter where you look. Driving a car could be considered immoral since it damages the earth.

"When are you going to join the real Christian club? :-)"

When I finally resolve my issues with faith, any sooner and I only become another liar :P So I'll continue to learn and hope I don't die before that day comes.

Leigh said...

Vera,

I just have to respond to this before I get to the rest of your inanities:

See this web site. Hell is in the center of the earth.
http://www.av1611.org/hell.html


Look at the bottom of that page. The 'news story' the link to is a debunked story from a TABLOID ! Here educate yourself:

http://www.snopes.com/religion/wellhell.asp


Now on to to other things...

I have another very lengthy post you wrote a while back to get to, which I will. Be assured. Please know that I am onto that tactic.

What tactic? Asking you to back up your claims?


Well since you are nobody, then we will chuck that one. Thanks so much for the clarification.

Was that an attempted insult? FAIL.

I love comments like this with lots of declarations of victory where none exists. But you go right on reveling in your victory. LOL You do realize you are on the losing team which is why I have the answers and you don't?

I didn't declare any victory. I made a statement that you do not back up your claims or answer questions that you can't answer.

No, I do not realize that I am on any losing 'team'.

For those occasions, we stand out front and hand out Bibles.

You stand out in front of elementary schools and daycares and hand out bibles while you scream at them about how sinful they are?


Our banners contain many admonitions on many different sins, not just sexual deviance. We preach on the same things.

Do your banners contain every single sin? Why not? Why do you pick and choose?

Do you scream at people about every single sin? Why not? Why do you pick and choose?

How stupid.


Do you or do you not scream at people with megaphones about the sin of sloth?? Why do you not to places where people are being lazy and scream at them about sloth? Answer the freaking question, Vera.


That's right because all liars will be cast into the lake of fire as well. We address many different sins, not just the ones you seem to be into.

In other words, you pick and choose which 'sins' you will scream at people about and which ones you won't. You and everybody that does this is a hypocrite.


You can test the physical things that are made with scientific equipment but not the spiritual realm. Those are spiritually discerned and God has already declared it to you. Since I have never been to either heaven or hell, I couldn't exactly give you the address. Eye has not seen nor ear heard the things that God has in store for those who love Him. In hell, there will be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth. But that is what you as a freewill agent choose for eternity.

If it can not be tested, then stop going around making false claims about it as if you have knowledge that it is an absolute truth.

God hasn't declared anything to me, neither has Allah or any other supposed deity.

Nobody has seen either place because they aren't there.

Blah, blah, weeping and gnashing, uh huh.

We finally spread out across the globe for one thing. And also to stop man from annihilating himself.

What a NON-answer. Why does God not knock down skyscrapers and satellites, Vera?


Haven't you ever experienced inner torment? From the description of the rich man in hell's fire, he is tormented in the flame and experiencing thirst that cannot be quenched.

Inner sadness, yep. Inner discomfort, check. Torment? Nope.

Your biblical description is nothing more than a bible story, no proof of any truth.


Why not just repent of your sins and come live with us in paradise where God says your eyes have never seen, nor your ears ever heard nor has ever entered your mind the wonders of heaven.

You didn't answer my questions, Vera. Instead you introduce a red herring argument. Answer the freaking question, Vera.


ou know one of the secrets is that we are just abiding our time through this present mess. The Bible says in the last days that everything that can be shaken, will be shaken. I know we're shaking. I wonder if you're shaking. The US is shaking. So we stand on the Rock that cannot be shaken, Jesus Christ. There's room for you.


THAT'S one of these big secrets that you get from your deity? That's it?

Nope, not shaking or tormented. Wait...let me check.





Nope, still not shaking or tormented.



Where is heaven, Vera? Ask your God and get back to me on that one.


Yeah sure. =8-/ It's a five year difference.

5 years, plus the fact that an embryo does not talk, walk, eat, think, plan, run....there are hundreds of differences.

How many kids have we aborted in this country that may have come up with an alternative to solve the fuel dilemma in our country?

How many aborted fetuses might have grown up to be another Hitler? Another Pol Pot? Another Saddam Hussein?

What if God knew we were going to run into a problem, so He gave certain children that ability to solve it and we went ahead and killed them?

If your god, or any god for that matter, isn't able to stop a woman from having an abortion if the fetus is of integral importance to the human race that he is incompetent at best. If he's got something that important for the human race, then nothing would be able to stop him from getting it to us. Following your logic, an abortion doctor is more powerful then God, since he can stop the birth of a child that God has sent to us with some special message.

Better yet, instead of your god sending potentially aborted fetuses to earth with special plans to save us, why doesn't he just do it himself?


How many Einsteins or Mozarts were there?

How many Jeffery Dahmer's have we aborted? How many Henry Lee Lucas's , John Wayne Gacy's ???


Do you know that the only people group that is increasing is the Muslims?

Oh NO...not MUSLIMS!!! Run for the flacking hills!


Do you know that the French and the Italians are heading toward extinction?


You should call them and let them know.

Leigh said...

IC,

I don't think the problem would be solved because the people who vote base their votes on religion. No law is going to get everyone to be fair and vote on actual ability. That's a sad fact of today and why I think people lie about it to get elected.

Not everyone who votes base their votes on religion. some of us actually use our brain and vote the issues. If people don't want to vote for an atheist candidate, fine! So be it! But an actual law that says an atheist can not hold office is a law made in bigotry.


My point was to them it IS the same thing. You and I might not think it is but to them it is no different so I can understand their protest. This is my opinion, nothing more. I tend to be able to understand many sides of an issue. I don't assume to have as much knowledge about them as some, just my opinion.

It doesn't matter if to them it is the same thing. It only matters that the objective truth is that they are NOT the same. Opinion does not change truth.

I think you've assumed I believe God can intervene; here is something I posted earlier...

...And maybe God can't prove he exists or answer every prayer because like everything else in the universe, there are laws even he must follow.

Why would I need to research something that is just an opinion, an idea, a suggestion...


Or maybe god doesn't intervene because he is a figment of the imagination of human beings.

Why would you need to research that? Well, if you care about putting forth arguments that make logical sense and aren't as lame as some of the things you've put forth so far, then I suggest you research it. If not, then continue to put forth nonsense. Makes no difference to me either way.


You brought up the 'protesting' subject so how is that changing it? Do you not think that what they do is "protesting" and equal to what war protesters do?

Nope.

You don't have to believe in what they say but they should be allowed to say it.

I didn't say they couldn't say it. I said that the tactics they use to say it are harassment and their message is illogical.


My point was that the people they are preaching to ARE throwing stones, and liquids and obscenities at them when they're only using WORDS. Words they believe in and are important enough to them to go out and face the hostility they receive. So I respect that.


Let's do an experiment, IC. Let's get together and I'll bring some stones. First I'll throw some stones at you. Then I'll yell at you. Let's see what hurts worse.


Not if the person saying them believes in that deity. You're asking for proof, but religion doesn't deal with proof it deals with faith. I'm just saying that not having any proof they are right doesn't make them wrong unless you have proof they are wrong.

It doesn't matter what the person making the claim believes to be true. It only matters, if they are making a claim that they are saying is objectively true, that they can provide proof for that claim. What you believe has no bearing on truth.

Once again, they are the ones making the claims. The burden of proof is one the one making the claim.


I don't think (me personally) that God would have written the book in a scientific language for people who knew nothing of science.

He could have given them the information and said 'Hey, I know you won't understand this now, but in the future you will. And this is very important stuff, so don't forget it.'

OR, and this would have been even better, he could have led them to the knowledge and intelligence they would have needed to understand the scientific evidence he gave them.

If he wants humans to learn these things on our own, he wouldn't give away the answers that easily.

Why would god want that? What is playing hide and go seek or something? Is it like 'Hey, guys, I have the cure for cancer, but I'm just going to let zillions of you waste away in horrific agony just so I can see if you figure it out yourself!' That God! What a kidder!


However there are a lot of things in the Bible that seem to be written in an almost scientific code that can be better understood now that we have more information.

A lot of things seem to be something until we see them for what they really are.


Look, I don't know if there is a God or not, or if the Bible is true or not. I'm just willing to listen to both sides and I find both sides interesting. I also like to share what I think and what I have opinions about. I don’t try to pawn off my opinions as being highly educated and well researched. I just like to talk about them which is kind of the point of blogging. Or am I wrong?

My question to you would be why would you even want to hold an opinion that is not well researched? Do you just not give a crap if what you believe is true or not?


I would like to know however why you felt it important to point out I have bad grammar. Were you trying to show my inadequacy in order to demean my opinion or did you have trouble understanding my points because of it?

Persecution complex, much? I pointed out your misuse of a word because you misused a word. If you care enough to type something, you might want to care enough to make sure your grammar is up to par. We all make mistakes, but the misuse of 'their' when you really mean 'they're' is a pet peeve of mine.

Weemaryanne said...

Fisking, fisking, fisking:

You claimed (your comment to Leigh of March 13, 2009 6:24 AM) that "spiritual truth is valid and many have have had to admit that."

So: Back up your claim. Citations, please. How many is "many"? and what are their names? and what exactly did they say? and where was it published?

Interestingly, some comments right here in this blog demonstrate this. Guilt, conviction, a drawing toward God are all proofs of the spiritual world.


Again I ask: Who said what? When? And what did you take it to mean, and why? I want NAMES and DATES and EXACT REFERENCES.

None of your "many have said it" and "their name is Legion" and "oh look bright shiny things."

When you finally get around to supplying the NAMES and the DATES and the EXACT REFERENCES, THEN AND ONLY THEN you can explain what you took these observations to mean.

If you cannot supply NAMES and DATES and EXACT REFERENCES, THEN YOU CAN DURNED WELL SAY SO.

Then I'll stop asking.

---------------
While you're at it, please explain what "spiritual truth" is; and how one demonstrates it; and what evidence one uses to support it; and what predictions it makes and what tests have been done to verify/falsify such predictions.

Just like in nature, we use physical elements to determine truth, the Bible is the sole source of spiritual truth....
blah blah blah, whine about Weemaryanne's attitude and isn't it a pity that Richard Dawkins jest wuzzn't brung up right, tsk tsk.

I hope you don't expect me to be impressed with this wittering, Vera. If you want to change my attitude, then straighten your thinking cap and give me a straight answer for once.

-------------
Did you know that God's invisible attributes are clearly seen from the creation of the world in the things that are made. Many people have proposed that t-rex didn't develop until after the fall of man. I don't think so. I think God is every bit as terrifying in His wrath as that creature. He is also as sweet and kind as any gentle creature. He is busy and diligent as the ant.

I'm beginning to wish I were corresponding with ants.

----------
Aside: With respect to your exchange with Captain Howdy, I'm very interested to learn which atheists have "mastery" as you claim and how you know it.

The religious views of atheists take precedence over every other religious group in this nation in the public schools and we are reaping the consequences.


For the 9999th time, atheists do not have religious views and in your mostly-great nation as in mine, NO religious view takes precedence over any other. First Amendment, remember?

If you have control of the youth, you pretty much have control at the family level. You don't even need to run for public office to take control once you have the children.

FOR THE LOVE OF ANYTHING, WOMAN, WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? Children don't vote, they don't make purchasing decisions, they don't teach school and they don't run drills in basic training. And who, exactly, do you think has "control of the youth"?

(If you say Satan, I swear I shall reach for my megaphone and holler the complete lyrics of "Santa Claus Is Comin' To Town" at you down the intertoobs.)

ImaCamerican said...

You stand out in front of elementary schools and daycares and hand out bibles while you scream at them about how sinful they are?

Now that's just stupid, I mean really...

Do your banners contain every single sin? Why not? Why do you pick and choose?

Cause they can't go around carrying billboards...

Do you scream at people about every single sin? Why not? Why do you pick and choose?

These questions are WAY to easy. They don't have time to scream EVERY sin... so stick to the obvious. If you're at Mardi Gras, you scream about being drunk, practically naked, and probably looking to get laid. Tell me those things aren't bad for you, and that most are not doing that and more. The streets filled with pick pockets so you've got greed. The people to lazy to actually walk around have sloth covered. It's a sinners paradise.

Do you or do you not scream at people with megaphones about the sin of sloth?? Why do you not to places where people are being lazy and scream at them about sloth? Answer the freaking question, Vera.


Someone's a little excited are you getting cranky?

In other words, you pick and choose which 'sins' you will scream at people about and which ones you won't. You and everybody that does this is a hypocrite.


Everyone is a hypocrite, that's usually the point I like to argue.

Blah, blah, weeping and gnashing, uh huh.

LOL yes, that's an overused description which tends to invoke a lot of rolling eyes almost involuntarily...

What a NON-answer. Why does God not knock down skyscrapers and satellites, Vera?

See this is a good point in arguing the tower of Babel... the only answer I can come up with is that humans couldn't build towers and of course, it fell over and killed people and that made it into the book. Lesson of course is don't build any towers until you've learned how to build them.

Inner sadness, yep. Inner discomfort, check. Torment? Nope.

Your biblical description is nothing more than a bible story, no proof of any truth.


Well that depends on if you believe the 'near death' experiences. I have a hard time with the idea of hell, but then again I've wanted people to go there. We should be smart enough to know what's bad for us without the need for a fear of Hell. People didn't even know WHAT was bad for them; let alone WHY it was bad. Still, it you look at the Bible, they know more then I'd expect. Hell was a way to get people not to do it, without having to prove how it was bad.
THAT'S one of these big secrets that you get from your deity? That's it?

Nope, not shaking or tormented. Wait...let me check.
Nope, still not shaking or tormented.


As long as you have humor, you're not dead yet... just had to say it...

Where is heaven, Vera? Ask your God and get back to me on that one.

I thought I already told you this.. IT'S OUTSIDE THE UNIVERSE...
Now try to keep up...

5 years, plus the fact that an embryo does not talk, walk, eat, think, plan, run....there are hundreds of differences

Ya, but the possibility is there... You can't argue that. I don't think even the woman getting the abortion is happy it's happening. The problem is, it shouldn't BE happening. We have the knowledge to keep it from happening. It's an absolute lazy solution.

Oh NO...not MUSLIMS!!! Run for the flacking hills!

What's funny about that is most "Muslims" really can't choose to BE Muslims. They're not given a choice. So of course the terrorists are Muslim, if they weren't (Or at least pretending to be) they'd be DEAD.

Do you know that the French and the Italians are heading toward extinction?

You should call them and let them know.


I'm a sucker for strong wit. I got news though, no one is going extinct... we're all becoming ONE... how that's that fit ya? Someday there will be only one "race" and hopefully no religion (and I mean the churches, not a faith in some higher power, that would be asking to much)

ImaCamerican said...

Leigh:
Not everyone who votes base their votes on religion. some of us actually use our brain and vote the issues.


Yes but we are sadly few in numbers I think, and I do hope I'm wrong.

But an actual law that says an atheist can not hold office is a law made in bigotry.


Well I don't argue that. Being mostly Canadian, I don't know much about laws. I do know a lot of them are just archaic. Here’s an example of a Canadian one… You can beat your wife so long as the stick is no thicker then your thumb… I think that's a local law still buried in the books.

Or maybe god doesn't intervene because he is a figment of the imagination of human beings.

True, but maybe the Bible is someone's genius way of getting humans to rise out of the dark ages, but has been left out in the sun a little to long…

If not, then continue to put forth nonsense. Makes no difference to me either way.


Well hopefully I'll be somewhat humorous if nothing else, but hopefully your opinion of my intelligence can improve with time. If not then I hope I at least grow on you.

Nope.

Do you believe they use the same tactics, thinking they can move people to do better in their lives? (and I'm talking about the basic values) Lets face it, humans are currently just wallowing in almost all of the ‘7 deadly sins’. We need to do a LOT better.

I said that the tactics they use to say it are harassment and their message is illogical.

I think if they go to your house it's harassment. To do it at events like Mardi Gras or rock concerts isn't harassment. Annoying perhaps, definitely loud, but not harassment. If they took all the bible references out, it would be a pretty good message. So maybe of singling out Homosexuals, they should go more basic. Sleeping around is never a good thing, who cares what your orientation is Their gripe with modestly pretty much surrounds that. If you see it, you want it.

Let's do an experiment, IC. Let's get together and I'll bring some stones. First I'll throw some stones at you. Then I'll yell at you. Let's see what hurts worse.

Did you just make the same point I tried to make?

What you believe has no bearing on truth.

And you're sure you know the truth right? I admit I know what's probable and improbable but I don't claim to know the absolute "truth". I can't say to Christians that I "know" they're wrong, even if I think I'm right. I do get the argument that they say they’re right but it’s a sin to say you’re not sure so I can’t really blame them for that.

He could have given them the information and said 'Hey, I know you won't understand this now, but in the future you will. And this is very important stuff, so don't forget it.'

OR, and this would have been even better, he could have led them to the knowledge and intelligence they would have needed to understand the scientific evidence he gave them.


What is the fun in that? That sounds great, but once again you have to believe God has such power. This is why I have problems with the Bible. I just see a possibility and I have to mention it and discuss it.

Why would god want that? What is playing hide and go seek or something? Is it like 'Hey, guys, I have the cure for cancer, but I'm just going to let zillions of you waste away in horrific agony just so I can see if you figure it out yourself!' That God! What a kidder!

Why wouldn't God want that? Maybe we need to figure out how to leave the universe. The way I see things, everything that happens has taught us something. Learning even from War has pushed us farther as a species. The fact we can learn at all pretty much blows me away. So I wonder if there couldn't be something behind it all. I just have trouble thinking he wants us to follow everything written in the bible. Maybe all he did was create the potential for what we are, but people have become confused thinking he can control it all. I don’t have all the answers, just lots of questions.

A lot of things seem to be something until we see them for what they really are.

Exactly, everything we see could be understood better in the future.. Why can't God be one such thing?

My question to you would be why would you even want to hold an opinion that is not well researched? Do you just not give a crap if what you believe is true or not?

I never said I didn't research, I simply admit I don't know everything. Why do you think I came here? To talk to myself cause I'm bored? No, I have ideas and I want to share them so people like you can make me feel less intellegent. :P That's ok though cause I'm learning from you despite your opinion of my intellegence.

Persecution complex, much?

Why yes, thank you. We hardly know each other and you just had to correct me 'firstly'. And you didn't say it with enough love... *sniff*

See I want to talk with you, I find it fun and educational. It amuses me and I really do hope I can amuse you. That, and being like my mother, I don't know when to keep my mouth shut. Feel free to correct my spelling and grammar, but I'm just saying it would take you to long to point it all out. I'll put it through word first and hopefully that will help.

Weemaryanne:
I hope you don't expect me to be impressed with this wittering, Vera. If you want to change my attitude, then straighten your thinking cap and give me a straight answer for once.


I just wanted to say, I don't want to change your attitude. I'm just here to learn because I can see arguments for so many sides of this subject. So I want to learn more. And like I said before, I don’t know when to keep my mouth shut. Not to mention I find everyone to be very interesting so far.

I'm beginning to wish I were corresponding with ants.

ok, that was funny. I'm sorry, but I had to laugh at that..

For the 9999th time, atheists do not have religious views

See now I agree with that... you can hold atheism up to religion and show the similarities between the belief in evolution and the belief in the Bible. It's still not the same thing...

And who, exactly, do you think has "control of the youth"?
(If you say Satan, I swear I shall reach for my megaphone and holler the complete lyrics of "Santa Claus Is Comin' To Town" at you down the intertoobs.)


LOL! See I think the teaching evolution argument is just wrong... Nothing would make me think teaching endangers the faith in God, unless you believe everything in the bible is literal, and I can’t believe that nor do I believe that should be taught.

Being the agnostic of the group means I can step back and see the humor AND insight of both sides. Then sometimes I get the feeling neither side likes agnostics very much. I don’t truly mean to offend, even if it comes out that way. I just can’t keep myself from typing sometimes. So as stupid as I may sound, I still respect the participants in this discussion.

Forgive me for I am weak, laugh at me for I am funny??

Leigh said...

IC,

I'm really starting to like you. At least you know how to lighten up and not take yourself so seriously.

Yes but we are sadly few in numbers I think, and I do hope I'm wrong.

Yep. Agreed. Why people can't set aside things like the skin color and/or the religious affiliation and the political affiliation of a candidate and just vote solely on the issues is beyond me.

Well I don't argue that. Being mostly Canadian, I don't know much about laws. I do know a lot of them are just archaic. Here’s an example of a Canadian one… You can beat your wife so long as the stick is no thicker then your thumb… I think that's a local law still buried in the books.

We have a lot of old laws on the books that don't make any sense either. Probably every country does. What I wonder is why we don't just go through and get rid of them all.

True, but maybe the Bible is someone's genius way of getting humans to rise out of the dark ages, but has been left out in the sun a little to long…

Ha Ha !!! You're funny, however, I think the bible pulls us back into the dark ages.

Well hopefully I'll be somewhat humorous if nothing else, but hopefully your opinion of my intelligence can improve with time. If not then I hope I at least grow on you.

I don't have an opinion about you personally, I only have an opinion about what you write and the way you write it.

Yeah, you are growing on me.

Do you believe they use the same tactics, thinking they can move people to do better in their lives? (and I'm talking about the basic values) Lets face it, humans are currently just wallowing in almost all of the ‘7 deadly sins’. We need to do a LOT better.

The thing is, they aren't trying to get people to do better. I don't know how it is in Canada, but here in the States, they are just trying to move our country into a theocracy where everyone follows the rules of the bible.

Yes, we could do better, but we don't need a patriarchal wizard in the sky to tell us that we need to take care of each other and do better.


I think if they go to your house it's harassment. To do it at events like Mardi Gras or rock concerts isn't harassment. Annoying perhaps, definitely loud, but not harassment. If they took all the bible references out, it would be a pretty good message. So maybe of singling out Homosexuals, they should go more basic. Sleeping around is never a good thing, who cares what your orientation is Their gripe with modestly pretty much surrounds that. If you see it, you want it.

Harassment doesn't just happen at someone's home. Harassment can happen in public just as much as on your own property. They have the right to free speech, no one in their right mind would question that. But they take that right and abuse it and hide behind the law to do it. For a good example of this look up Tony Miano's blog 'The Lawman Chronicles'. He's associated with the Ray Comfort 'ministry'.


Why is sleeping around 'never good'? It really doesn't matter whether it is good or bad, however,the fact is that it is none of anyone else's business.

Did you just make the same point I tried to make?

Umm...I dunno anymore.

And you're sure you know the truth right? I admit I know what's probable and improbable but I don't claim to know the absolute "truth". I can't say to Christians that I "know" they're wrong, even if I think I'm right. I do get the argument that they say they’re right but it’s a sin to say you’re not sure so I can’t really blame them for that.

I aim to believe as many true things as possible and disbelieve as many untrue things as possible.

There is no 'absolute truth'.


What is the fun in that? That sounds great, but once again you have to believe God has such power. This is why I have problems with the Bible. I just see a possibility and I have to mention it and discuss it.

It's not a matter of fun. It's a matter of the way their so deity supposedly did things in the bible makes no logical sense.


Why wouldn't God want that? Maybe we need to figure out how to leave the universe.

LOLOL!!! Ummmmm....pass me some of what you're taking please...


The way I see things, everything that happens has taught us something. Learning even from War has pushed us farther as a species. The fact we can learn at all pretty much blows me away. So I wonder if there couldn't be something behind it all. I just have trouble thinking he wants us to follow everything written in the bible. Maybe all he did was create the potential for what we are, but people have become confused thinking he can control it all. I don’t have all the answers, just lots of questions.


Have you considered that 'he' doesn't exist?

I never said I didn't research, I simply admit I don't know everything. Why do you think I came here? To talk to myself cause I'm bored? No, I have ideas and I want to share them so people like you can make me feel less intellegent. :P That's ok though cause I'm learning from you despite your opinion of my intellegence.

You crack me up! :p

Why yes, thank you. We hardly know each other and you just had to correct me 'firstly'. And you didn't say it with enough love... *sniff*

See I want to talk with you, I find it fun and educational. It amuses me and I really do hope I can amuse you. That, and being like my mother, I don't know when to keep my mouth shut. Feel free to correct my spelling and grammar, but I'm just saying it would take you to long to point it all out. I'll put it through word first and hopefully that will help.


Please don't cry. I can't handle it.


From your other comment:

Now that's just stupid, I mean really...

That's the point. Screaming at people about things they do that are NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS is stupid.

Cause they can't go around carrying billboards...

Ha ha! They wouldn't if they could though. They only want to scream at people about certain 'sins'.

These questions are WAY to easy. They don't have time to scream EVERY sin... so stick to the obvious.

What a cop out. They have time to make signs, show up and scream. If they really hated all sins they'd flacking make time to scream about all sins.


If you're at Mardi Gras, you scream about being drunk, practically naked, and probably looking to get laid. Tell me those things aren't bad for you, and that most are not doing that and more.

No, those things aren't always bad for you. They can be bad in excess.

The POINT is not what's bad for you and what isn't, the point is that what people do at Mardi Gras is none of their business.

Everyone is a hypocrite, that's usually the point I like to argue.

In some way I'd be will to bet that most people are,yes. Vera seems to have made a hobby of it.

See this is a good point in arguing the tower of Babel... the only answer I can come up with is that humans couldn't build towers and of course, it fell over and killed people and that made it into the book. Lesson of course is don't build any towers until you've learned how to build them.


LOL !! You may be on to something. I tend to think that maybe some of the stories in the bible might have had their origins in some event that happened and got misinterpreted. This might be one of them. Maybe a lesson in bad architecture.


Well that depends on if you believe the 'near death' experiences. I have a hard time with the idea of hell, but then again I've wanted people to go there. We should be smart enough to know what's bad for us without the need for a fear of Hell. People didn't even know WHAT was bad for them; let alone WHY it was bad. Still, it you look at the Bible, they know more then I'd expect. Hell was a way to get people not to do it, without having to prove how it was bad.

I do not believe there is anything supernatural about near death experiences.

I think the whole hell thing is either a misinterpretation of the Old Testament OR just a way keep people in line.

I like your last sentence. Good point.

I thought I already told you this.. IT'S OUTSIDE THE UNIVERSE...
Now try to keep up...


Is not. So there.


Ya, but the possibility is there... You can't argue that. I don't think even the woman getting the abortion is happy it's happening. The problem is, it shouldn't BE happening. We have the knowledge to keep it from happening. It's an absolute lazy solution.

The possibility is there that I'll wake up tomorrow and sprout wings and fly.

I don't know anybody that gets happy about abortion, the point here is that neither you, nor I, nor Vera and her magic book, have the right to tell these women what to do.

It can be a lazy solution. It is not always a lazy solution. I hope you weren't generalizing.


What's funny about that is most "Muslims" really can't choose to BE Muslims. They're not given a choice. So of course the terrorists are Muslim, if they weren't (Or at least pretending to be) they'd be DEAD.


What I can't stand is when people like Vera get a wadded up over the fact that another religion other than hers is growing quickly. What hubris and ignorance.

I'd prefer that NO religions grew at all and that we all learned to do the right thing just because it's good for society as a whole when we do. Fat chance that'll ever happen.

I'm a sucker for strong wit. I got news though, no one is going extinct... we're all becoming ONE... how that's that fit ya? Someday there will be only one "race" and hopefully no religion (and I mean the churches, not a faith in some higher power, that would be asking to much)

How are we all becoming one?
Care to elaborate?

Yeah, that would be asking too much to have all religion and 'higher power' mumbo jumbo disappear, but if you never ask, you'll never receive. :p

captain howdy said...

Vera says:

You don't even need to run for public office to take control once you have the children.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

How fortunate, since I can't hold public office--I'm legally barred from doing so. It's one of the basic rights any citizen should have and it's denied to me solely because I'm an atheist. A fact that you cheered. You loudly demand your rights be respected (even the right to threaten workers at an abortion clinic) and **** anybody else's rights.



Doesn't it seem strange to anybody that we atheists supposedly hold sway over society but can't even run for public office of the society we supposedly hold sway over?

verandoug said...

Leigh

Also, if these people wanted to simply state that something was wrong, they could walk up, say "Hey, I think what you are doing here is wrong" and walk away. Harassing people with megaphones is not the same thing.

That is your own understanding. The Bible clearly states that it is the preaching that leads sinners, such as yourself, to repentance.

I have put some pics in a new thread on my blog just so you will see the banners we carry cover many bases. This is just three. I have two other signs that we carry that have the same thing and perhaps more sins than are on these. Our banner states, "Be ye Holy for I AM Holy says the Lord." That covers everything as well. Liars are not holy. Covetous are not holy. Homosexuals are an abomination to God.

It's not that they are doing something it's what they are doing and the way they are doing it that angers myself and others.

You are angry because you love your sin... period.

Vera

verandoug said...

LOL ! Are you serious ? They aren't using stones so that makes their behavior ok? They aren't burning anybody so that makes it ok?

You are headed for hell's fire where you will be tormented for eternity. We know that. You are on the losing team. I repented once and was reconciled to God, freed from sin. That is my simple testimony that is true and right.

For us to sit back and let it happen, never warning you, would be the most abominable hateful act imaginable. There is a severe judgment for those who do not share Jesus with others. We are doing exactly what we should be doing.

Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 1 Cor. 1:20-25

May God begin to open your spiritual eyes today, Leigh.

Vera

verandoug said...

What if? Well, what if? But in short, NO, we do not know for certain that the universe is not infinite.

This Hubble volume has an end but there is pretty good evidence that something exists outside of it.

Vera

verandoug said...

ImaCamerican

I don't think (me personally) that God would have written the book in a scientific language for people who knew nothing of science. If he wants humans to learn these things on our own, he wouldn't give away the answers that easily. However there are a lot of things in the Bible that seem to be written in an almost scientific code that can be better understood now that we have more information.

I agree with this. There is a ministry that I subscribe to called Reasons to Believe. Hugh Ross is an astrophysicist that received Jesus after trying to disprove all the holy books of the world scientifically, historically, and prophetically. He came at this from a purely scientific secular background. What impressed him about Genesis 1 is that it fit what we know in science about how this world came to be. He had absolutely no idea of all the controversy over these words which put him in a unique position. It wasn't until years later when he began to share what he had discovered that people began to come against him.

This universe starts with a beginning, which we now know is true through our studies of the big bang. The Bible is the only holy book that describes a beginning. After this, the heavens begin to stretch out. The Bible mentions this also. Then it moves forward in time to the creation of the earth. Moses precisely describes the initial conditions being dark - no light penetrating the primordial gases, a water world, and void of life. Then the next statement to me is the most misunderstood statement in the Bible. God says, "Let there be light." Light where? He has already stated clearly that He has created the universe. What does this light produce? It says "day and night." What caused those primordial gases to dissipate so that we had a clearer atmosphere? Wasn't it the creation of the moon, which is younger than our earth? The creation of the moon is remarkable. It was apparently caused by something large hitting the early earth and then the dust and debris became the moon. The odds of such a collision creating a planet suitable for life so that water could exist in all three states is staggering. We know that the next two events are correct in the right order. Our atmosphere begins to occur. Almost immediately microbes come on the scene. Why aren't they mentioned? I believe what you said is true that these types of things would have only confused those whose science background could not discern them. But it is obvious that to create the atmosphere, there had to be microbes. Then the dry land comes about. This is when the process begins. Next the oxygen producing plants come on the scene. They are primitive at first but eventually there are more and more life forms that are created from this point forward. Next the earth becomes stable in its orbit around the sun and its rotation is slowed to about 23-24 hours so that the first 24 hour days, then seasons, and years begin. Another misunderstanding is where it states that the sun and the moon were "made." This was past tense meaning they had already been made which we know from the 1st vs. that states that God had created the universe. Then we move into complex animals. The animals begin where? Where does science tell us the first animals appear? Was it not in the water? Genesis says this as well. The word translated "great whale" means dinosaur or dragon. Thus day #5 describes these first creatures and also the first birds. Then there is a closing off of this period, just as in the days prior and a dawning of a new day, which is evident in the geologic record through the KT boundary. All dinosaurs are wiped out and mammals such as cattle are created. Then comes man created in God's image. The image of God is possessed by no other creature on this earth. We paint from our soul. We compose beautiful complicated music. We have a higher cognitive ability and think abstractly. We can create and duplicate many things that God did such as creating self-replicating RNA in the lab. We consider our death in terms of what will happen. We look for a purpose in life. Why am I here? What is my purpose? We are the only creatures that seek and worship God? Anthropologists have stated clearly the man showed these abilities from the minute he shows up in the fossil record. We are superior to the animals in every way even if we share a commonality with them. That commonality gives us the ability to live in symbiosis with these creatures in this world and have them benefit our lives in many ways such as vaccines.

That is just what God is showing us today. I am sure that new information and a fine tuning will come about tomorrow. I knew God was real when He freed me from sin. It is neat to see His creative hand in His works. Our conscience and the creation make man without excuse. Nobody will be able to stand before Him and say, "I didn't know."

Vera

verandoug said...

How fortunate, since I can't hold public office--I'm legally barred from doing so. It's one of the basic rights any citizen should have and it's denied to me solely because I'm an atheist. A fact that you cheered. You loudly demand your rights be respected (even the right to threaten workers at an abortion clinic) and **** anybody else's rights.

I cheer because atheists stand behind all forms of sexual deviance including pornography and the solution to the consequence which would be the heinous murder of innocent children. They are highly against our freedoms of speech because they are "offended." Everyone in this country has had to bow down to the atheists and their being offended. In many of the writings I get from atheists, they would totally deny our freedoms of speech as Christians. Atheists tear down the moral fabric of our nation through unbelief in a Holy God. If there is no God, then we have no eternal consequence to our actions. Thus we can cheat, lie, steal, covet and get away with it, we think. I dread the day that our country is turned over to that kind of leadership. Actually it already has because the atheists claim to be Christians to get in. Be assured that the real Christians can see right through their hypocrisy. How can I say that? Because a) nobody who believes that there is a Holy God who judges sin has relations such as Bill Clinton did in the Oval Office and b) the apostles clearly stated that we know who's a Christian and who's not by their fruits.

Vera

Leigh said...

Vera,

You are headed for hell's fire where you will be tormented for eternity. We know that.

No, "we" don't know that, you believe that.

Let me ask you another question that you will dodge like a bullet, Vera. Do you think it is moral to pour gasoline on someone and set them on fire because they once did something wrong?

If not, why not? After all, your god would burn people for all eternity for doing the slightest thing wrong, like not believing in him or gluttony.


For us to sit back and let it happen, never warning you, would be the most abominable hateful act imaginable. There is a severe judgment for those who do not share Jesus with others. We are doing exactly what we should be doing.

Actually, the 2nd most abominable act imaginable is that you would worship some sky wizard who would burn people, even for one second, for not believing in him.

The 1st most abominable act imaginable is that he would do it.

May God begin to open your spiritual eyes today, Leigh.


May logic and reason peel through the crust of fairy land and superstition that has embedded itself in your brain.

verandoug said...

This is one of my crises of faith. I just can't believe Heaven or Hell is part of the physical realm.

Like I've mentioned before, I look at the Bible as being written for children with limited understanding but with clues within for more mature minds. However, I have not truly studied the Bible in quite some time so my understanding is somewhat limited.


That is true because these places are for eternal soles not corporal beings. This physical body will be laid to rest one day but our soul lives on because we are created in His image.

Vera

Leigh said...

That is your own understanding. The Bible clearly states that it is the preaching that leads sinners, such as yourself, to repentance.

The bible also clearly states that slavery is ok and that you should be happy to bash open the heads of babies on rocks.


I have put some pics in a new thread on my blog just so you will see the banners we carry cover many bases. This is just three. I have two other signs that we carry that have the same thing and perhaps more sins than are on these. Our banner states, "Be ye Holy for I AM Holy says the Lord." That covers everything as well. Liars are not holy. Covetous are not holy. Homosexuals are an abomination to God.

No, that doesn't cover it because most people don't know what you are talking about, they just think you are psycho religious goons. They are right.

The only thing that you do by posting pics of your signs is make yourself look more like an self righteous busy body than you already do.

You are angry because you love your sin... period.

Nope. I'm angry because you harass people when you have no business whatsoever poking your nose into their lives or how they chose to live it.

I'm angry because you want to get into the government and make bigoted laws against things you don't like.

I'm angry because you want to hijack the science curriculum of our already struggling public schools and bastardize science by teaching kids that a sky wizard poofed everything into existence in 6 days.

I'm angry because of YOUR behavior, not because of mine.

Leigh said...

This Hubble volume has an end but there is pretty good evidence that something exists outside of it.


Oh, and "something" must = god, right? See, this is why you should not attempt science, Vera. You're gonna hurt yourself.

verandoug said...

True, but I do think people can be "moral" without having to be Christian. Still it's hard to find someone who fits the true definition of moral no matter where you look. Driving a car could be considered immoral since it damages the earth.

You bring up a good point here. The real question you are proposing is what is sin? Is cutting down a tree sin? Is eating an animal sin? Sin is the breaking of the Law. The Law hinges on two things - loving the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and loving your neighbor as yourself. Jesus said that if love your neighbor, you will do him no harm.

The line that has become so fuzzy of late revolves around sex. Most non-Christians will agree, for example, that hurting someone else such as stealing is wrong. But they would not find sexual deviance or lust wrong.

Sex is a good thing and was created by God, not satan, to be enjoyed by a man and a woman in a marriage relationship. All the body parts are designed for this to not only procreate but for the pleasure involved. The deviance involves getting out of that place to have sex with anyone who is not in that bound covenant relationship. Partially, the reason for this boundary, set up by God, is that this act brings about children who are hurt by the effects of the off-color relationship. In addition, this one act of intimacy can bring up horrible consequences within (forget the STDs) that last a lifetime because we become one with that person. The STDs were created by God to encourage people to stay pure. In essence, we are committing adultery then because we are sharing that moment with someone else's spouse. That is just fornication that this society has made so acceptable. But sin doesn't ever stagnate. It always moves further away from the target until we end up with perversions such as pornography,
child pornography, bestiality and homosexuality and then pedophilia. All of these deviate from the standard of God which is why He condemns it so strongly. In this society, those that would hold a moral view in some areas, believe that since these acts do not effect them personally (or so they believe) then it is no longer an issue of morality. Unfortunately, they do effect us. We have seen some of the grossest of humanity at these sexual parties that are springing up across the nation where people walk around nude and/or exposing body parts. The worst of it is that people bring their children to these events.

"When are you going to join the real Christian club? :-)"

When I finally resolve my issues with faith, any sooner and I only become another liar :P So I'll continue to learn and hope I don't die before that day comes.


I am here and willing to answer as many questions as you have.

Many blessings,
Vera

captain howdy said...

Vera said:

I cheer because atheists stand behind all forms of sexual deviance including pornography and the solution to the consequence which would be the heinous murder of innocent children. They are highly against our freedoms of speech because they are "offended." Everyone in this country has had to bow down to the atheists and their being offended. In many of the writings I get from atheists, they would totally deny our freedoms of speech as Christians. Atheists tear down the moral fabric of our nation through unbelief in a Holy God. If there is no God, then we have no...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You feel that only you True Christians (TM) should have any rights, and **** everybody else.

Atheists can't hold office in the theocracy you religious fanatics are trying to set up? **** them.

Cripples can't walk because you Christian nazis have blocked funding for the very research that could have helped them? **** them too I guess, huh Vera?


You're the Westboro Baptist Church, Vera. You and your hateful, ugly little "ministry" are a bunch of goons and religious fanatics that demand the right to tell everybody else how to live, and ****anybody else's rights. You're the self-appointed morality police.



You're the Taliban. And if people like you ever take over this country, as you want to do, it won't be America anymore. It'll be a Christian version of Iran or Saudi Arabia--and every bit as free.

Weemaryanne said...

Vera, re yours of March 26, 2009 6:08AM ("This Hubble volume has an end but there is pretty good evidence that something exists outside of it."

Once again, Vera:

1) What's the evidence?
2) Who found it?
3) Where's it published?

Names. Dates. Quotes. References. Citations. EVIDENCE.

GIVE ME ONE FACT FOR CHARITY'S SAKE.

Leigh said...

MaryAnne,

I was going to ask that, too, but I thought it would be futile. Good luck! :)

Weemaryanne said...

Yes, Leigh, of course it's futile to ask Vera to support her silly claims.

Then again, you and I don't have an imaginary friend, therefore we don't get to defy the laws of nature and live forever, therefore by definition our existence is futile.

So I figure, what have I got to lose. At least I can demonstrate to the world that she's not even able to be honest in her own house, so to speak.

verandoug said...

Leigh

The web site I sent had Scriptures in it, which is why I sent it. Whether this man's recording is real or not is beyond my scope of being able to test it. The Bible clearly states that the supernatural cannot be tested by natural means. They are spiritually discerned and compared against the Bible. What you asked was where hell is. That web site explains clearly where it is. You seem to be under the delusion that somehow you will maintain your corporal body after death. That is not the case. Your soul is eternal and will live on either with God in heaven or in hell's fire. I would imagine that if you are anything in real life as you are on this list, that you live your life in sin. God will be happy to send you to the place of your choice - hell's fire where you will spend eternity weeping and gnashing your teeth. That means after a quadrillion years, you will still be there in torment. By your own freewill choice, that is what you choose because you refuse to acknowledge God. God says that at some point, He manifests Himself to every man. I believe there was a time for you. In your case, if you continue on this path, it will be hell's fire.

We discuss many sin issues with people. I have fully debunked your argument with our banners. You asked if we spoke on lies. Liars are mentioned. Covetous are mentioned. Pot smokers are mentioned. But nothing ever satisfies you since you are the all-knowing Leigh. You have no idea what we do or why. But we would be happy to have you tag along and listen sometime. And for the record, we have never stood out in front of a ps and shouted at the students. We stand there quietly and hand out Bibles which are eagerly taken. Sometimes 1500 Bibles leave our hands in a matter of minutes. We also target places where we know we will find sinners who are flagrantly sinning. If they are drinking to get drunk, openly fornicating, etc, we address those sins because it is easy to do so. When we have one-on-one conversations, we pinpoint where the person is with God. Sometimes people are there and perhaps were not aware of what goes on at these parties. They leave the next day.

You argument for abortion only proves where your wicked evil heart truly is. Anyone that can defend the murder of innocent children because they are in a stage of development is a reprobate believing evil is good and good is evil. You have no conscience anymore, Leigh. Your heart is so hardened toward sin and God that I don't know what could possibly get through to you anymore.

Vera

verandoug said...

Not everyone who votes base their votes on religion. some of us actually use our brain and vote the issues. If people don't want to vote for an atheist candidate, fine! So be it! But an actual law that says an atheist can not hold office is a law made in bigotry.

It is obvious from our recent elections, that people did not consider the outcome of the election. Your argument is moot.

Vera

verandoug said...

Why would I need to research something that is just an opinion, an idea, a suggestion...

Or maybe God doesn't intervene because he is a figment of the imagination of human beings.

Why would you need to research that? Well, if you care about putting forth arguments that make logical sense and aren't as lame as some of the things you've put forth so far, then I suggest you research it. If not, then continue to put forth nonsense. Makes no difference to me either way.


There are two proofs that God is real and that make man without excuse. One is your conscience and inner man. You cannot know anything you believe is truth in your worldview because it is just a bunch of nerve endings firing away. Your beliefs have nothing to do with whether you survive or not so you can't say that they play a role in natural selection. Plenty of mass murderers survived while innocent folk have died. You judge many matter of right and wrong. One that you believe with fervor is that religion is evil. The very fact that you make that distinction is an indication that you possess a conscience.

Secondly, the things that are made. The facts are that many parameters, such as the creation of the moon, are incredible events that support life here. Had that occurrence not happened in the exact right way at the exact right angle, life would not exist here with water in all three states.

There are many indications that the first cells were fully functional as seen here: http://www.studiodaily.com/main/technique/tprojects/6850.html

This occurred right from the start. There are no indications that there was a primordial soup. Because of that and because science will not admit that a Creator is at the wheel, they are proposing the possibility that life might have arrived on asteroids. According to the RTB model, if they do find life on Mars, it will be obvious that it is from Earth. Self replicating RNA studies point toward extreme intelligence and purpose in the creation of all living things.

These two things make you without excuse. It is obvious that our creation required a Creator and that you judge right from wrong.

Vera

verandoug said...

Let's do an experiment, IC. Let's get together and I'll bring some stones. First I'll throw some stones at you. Then I'll yell at you. Let's see what hurts worse.

Jesus spoke harsh words as did the apostles. Jesus beat up a fairly large group of people that were buying and selling in the temple.

Vera

verandoug said...

If he wants humans to learn these things on our own, he wouldn't give away the answers that easily.

Why would god want that? What is playing hide and go seek or something? Is it like 'Hey, guys, I have the cure for cancer, but I'm just going to let zillions of you waste away in horrific agony just so I can see if you figure it out yourself!' That God! What a kidder!


The reason we die is so that people such as you do not live forever in your bitterness and hatefulness. Can you imagine?

Vera

verandoug said...

A lot of things seem to be something until we see them for what they really are

Amen.

Vera

verandoug said...

Persecution complex, much? I pointed out your misuse of a word because you misused a word. If you care enough to type something, you might want to care enough to make sure your grammar is up to par. We all make mistakes, but the misuse of 'their' when you really mean 'they're' is a pet peeve of mine.

Baloney. You try to intimidate everyone here even if you have to reduce yourself to grammar attacks.

Vera

verandoug said...

If you cannot supply NAMES and DATES and EXACT REFERENCES, THEN YOU CAN DURNED WELL SAY SO.

The Bible is the sole source of spiritual truth and matches the record of nature in that each page contains something that can be tested.

So let's compare this against the Bible and not just one verse but a page in context.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.


There is the progression of events that led to the sin of homosex and all the rest. You start by God revealing truth and who He is to you. You reject that because you think you're so smart. He gives you up. Does it sound familiar?

Vera

ImaCamerican said...

Hello again :)

Leigh:

Ha Ha !!! You're funny, however, I think the bible pulls us back into the dark ages.


I tend to agree on this point. If religion can't evolve like everything else, then it can become dangerous. The Bible was an amazing book for it's time, but the world is a much different place then it was back then. Now it's a book used for many dark things which to me is very sad.

Why is sleeping around 'never good'? It really doesn't matter whether it is good or bad, however, the fact is that it is none of anyone else's business.

'sleeping around' as in multiple partners. We have diseases that can be spread, and it can also have a negative mental effect. Kids have sex to young and are unable to handle the emotional and physical effects of it. I'm not saying we need censorship but I think things are starting to go to far. I think of my niece and all the hormones she's got ragging (age 11) and all the videos she watches. I remember what I was like at that age going crazy over TV stars and rock bands. Then the other day I ended up having to tell her what A.I.D.S. was, she didn't know. THAT scares me... BTW she goes to Catholic school so I'm guessing they don't teach about sexually transmitted diseases and THAT scares the crap out of me.

Have you considered that 'he' doesn't exist?

Oh yes and then some... I've looked into quite a few religions trying to see if even one felt right. I just see how unbelievable life is and my mind just can't believe it's all chance.. it just blows my brain to much. So I can't help but wonder if there is SOMETHING at work. That's why I think "God" is outside of the universe (and we're inside the matrix LOL)

No, those things aren't always bad for you. They can be bad in excess.

Yes that's it exactly and the world seems to have become all about EXCESS. Maybe that's why I don't mind seeing people preach in the street to much. You see everything else, people practically naked and having sex on the street. So why not some of the other side. We have drive by shootings and prostitutes so why not something there to say 'hey that's wrong!' I don't agree with all of their messages but I'm almost happy to see SOMEONE out there talking about it. Actually to be honest, I wish I didn’t have to see either of these things….

I thought I already told you this.. IT'S OUTSIDE THE UNIVERSE...
Now try to keep up...

Is not. So there.


Is too! something had to have made all this freaky stuff. HOW can it be random, I just can't get my head around it! IT'S DRIVING ME MAD!!! ...no, I'm ok.

It can be a lazy solution. It is not always a lazy solution. I hope you weren't generalizing

Perhaps I was a tad... I mostly get upset that some people use it like birth control. I mean why haven't we as an intelligent species come far enough that this shouldn't be happening. We should be smarter then we are. Rape, ok I understand... but I can also UNDERSTAND people being upset even then. It's not the fault of the unborn, but I can't FORCE a woman to go through that kind of pregnancy, I'm awed by the women who actually do.

That said..outlawing it WOULD NEVER WORK! and I mean NEVER! Desperate women would go back to trying to do it themselves. They'd have back room doctors with rusty coat hangers. We've been there, done that. I just wish there wasn't a NEED for it.

I'd prefer that NO religions grew at all and that we all learned to do the right thing just because it's good for society as a whole when we do. Fat chance that'll ever happen.

If life could only be that way, oh I agree with that 100%. I'm hoping someday, but not in my lifetime. See I'd call that the religion of COMMON SENCE.

How are we all becoming one?
Care to elaborate?


The way the human population is growing, if given enough time, the races would mix together. That is if we could do it before the sun dies or the earth dies or we nuke ourselves.

C.H.:

Doesn't it seem strange to anybody that we atheists supposedly hold sway over society but can't even run for public office of the society we supposedly hold sway over?


Is there really a law? If you’re not kidding then you've got to be kidding! I really need to brush up on my Canadian law, wonder if we got anything like that.

oh BTW I don't think I've mentioned I'm also American (Camerican hehe). I was born up here but my Dad went to college down there and stole my Mother. I live up here, it's nice up here, it's got FREE healthcare! I lived down there, but only till my healthcare was going to run out, then I came back up, then I went back down, then I came back up, then I went back down, then I came back up... ect for about 6 times in my life. Always come back up though...

Vera:
That is your own understanding. The Bible clearly states that it is the preaching that leads sinners, such as yourself, to repentance


This is why I have some respect for the street preachers. It does actually say that, and they do it. Let’s just say I have more respect for that, then a Priest/Pastor who sits in a church preaching to people who are already converted and saying their lines.

I also tend to respect 'Witnesses' because they also try to actually FOLLOW their beliefs. I just hate it when people who say they're Christian go against almost all the teachings. I think that's when 'belief' becomes 'politics'. They say what people EXPECT to hear.

What impressed him about Genesis 1 is that it fit what we know in science about how this world came to be

THAT is what fascinates me. I mean that's an awfully BIG coincidence. If it wasn't God who gave these words then someone was BRILLIANT to have written it.

I cheer because atheists stand behind all forms of sexual deviance including pornography and the solution to the consequence which would be the heinous murder of innocent children.

Now, now, not ALL atheists do that.
Most, maybe, but not ALL.

They are highly against our freedoms of speech because they are "offended." Everyone in this country has had to bow down to the atheists and their being offended.

Even when I considered myself an atheist, I never expected everyone to live without religion OR free speech. There are a few good atheists who follow almost all the religious laws except believing in God. They might go to hell anyway if you're correct, but not all of them are evil.

Also, understand the atheists have had to keep quiet for CENTURIES in fear of being hanged or burned or cast out. Some tend to be a little angry of their treatment over the years. They are now able to use the same freedom of speech to voice their opinions, some just do it louder and with more anger. Everything kind of goes both ways.

After my sister had her son, I was told at 18 that I would be his Godmother. However, I had to agree that I wouldn't tell them there is no God. I took offence to this, not because I wanted to tell them God didn't exist, but because my family didn't think I had enough respect to allow them to teach the beliefs they wanted. (And they're hypocrites in their own faith) I even attended Church on the holidays because I had that respect. They didn't have that same respect for me... I no longer attend, but my 'excuse' is that I am not Catholic and they are.

Back to Leigh:
The bible also clearly states that slavery is ok and that you should be happy to bash open the heads of babies on rocks.


Ok I just have to say this.. HOW is it that Mormonism is on this earth??? THEY believe dark skin is the 'curse of Cain' I think we can ALL agree this is just WAY out there! Not only that, but Native Americans are lost Israelites. You've got to be kidding me. I was reading up on this recently and I'm still not over the shock...

MaryAnne, (I think)

Oh, and "something" must = god, right? See, this is why you should not attempt science, Vera. You're gonna hurt yourself.


Hey this was my little theory so don't be too hard on her for that. I think, one of the reasons I want there to be a God, is because I wanna know all this stuff. What IS outside the universe, how DID it start, WHAT caused it. HOW is ANY of this POSSIBLE? (ok, my head is starting to hurt)

Vera

Jesus said that if love your neighbor, you will do him no harm.


Little trivia, here for everyone. The Wiccan (witchcraft) rede is "And ye harm none, do what ye will"

Sorry, you just reminded me of that :) it's a neat little rule. It is also one of the few (or only) that all "Wiccans" believe. It almost covers everything since "harm none" means yourself as well. I've found wisdom is almost every religion I've looked into. Buddhism believes you should follow the middle ground. Not having to much, not having to little which makes sense... I just can't believe in reincarnation, or that the Goddess mourns her lover thus creating winter...

We have seen some of the grossest of humanity at these sexual parties that are springing up across the nation where people walk around nude and/or exposing body parts. The worst of it is that people bring their children to these events.

Oh I have seen some of those videos... it does amaze me. Not just that they're naked but they're practicly having sex in the street. They have 'Bondage' floats with people whipping each other on them with guys strapped to walls with leather hoods on... I just don't wanna be seeing that on the street thankyouverymuch.

There are no indications that there was a primordial soup. Because of that and because science will not admit that a Creator is at the wheel, they are proposing the possibility that life might have arrived on asteroids.

Another piece of trivia. They apparently found something on an asteroid that when hit with lightening creates something like an empty cell membrane. The theory was that protein on earth may have entered such a membrane and helped create the first cell. I don't know where that fits in religiously

You'll NEVER guess what my verification word is... NOWARS and I'm not kidding... that's just freaky

ImaCamerican said...

Vera:
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,


Oh I think I might fall into this category. I'd probably be a Christian if it weren't for this brain of mine and all it's questioning...

Ok I'd like to start a poll... who here believes there are NO homosexuals in Pakistan?

ImaCamerican said...

I missed something, I really need to reply then back away from the computer...

The line that has become so fuzzy of late revolves around sex. Most non-Christians will agree, for example, that hurting someone else such as stealing is wrong. But they would not find sexual deviance or lust wrong

See I think lust is wrong. Lust never makes you happy. I've had lots of 'lust' but only one 'love'. I'd marry him but I can't decide who'd be worthy of performing the ceremony. I don't trust politicians or any religious organization... Can we marry ourselves? Does commonlaw count?

(LOL my verification word is 'prats' which to me sounds a lot like 'drats' which would be on subject for this reply)

Weemaryanne said...

"...The Bible is the sole source of spiritual truth..."

Excuse me?

Your original claim was, and I quote:

Spiritual truth is valid and many have had to admit that. (March 13, 2009 6:24 AM)

I asked for citations. You mumbled something vague about Einstein. No date, no citation, apparently I'm just supposed to believe you.

Well, I know better.

I insisted that you either back up your claim or come clean and admit you had nothing to back it up with.

I made a point of repeating the demand so that nobody would have any doubts about what I was asking. Especially you.

And now that you're back and now that you've gone to the trouble of answering me, what have you come up with? What non-answer do you think you can fob off on me?

The Bible.

This is your "many" who "have had to admit" that "spiritual truth is valid"????

Vera, you're pathetic.

You know perfectly well that no amount of chapter-and-worsing will have any impact. You also know perfectly well what answer I wanted -- nothing much really, merely names, dates, titles of publications and little verifiable details like that.

So instead of providing evidence to support your original claim, you add ANOTHER CLAIM:

"The Bible is the sole source of spiritual truth and matches the record of nature in that each page contains something that can be tested....."

Except of course, your quote contains NOTHING TESTABLE, only a tired old sermon full of threats about impossible tortures in an imaginary place, delivered in the name of your imaginary friend. Then you top that off by claiming that your imaginary friend has already revealed itself to me -- when you know durned well that ain't so.

In sum, Vera, apparently you think you can make any claim, and support it with any lie, and that constitutes an argument.

I repeat: Pathetic.

ImaCamerican said...

an imaginary place, delivered in the name of your imaginary friend.

OK, but that's one heck of an imaginary friend. I'd love to have a friend like that. Forgives your sin, sends you to heaven, AND he commits suicide to save you for all eternity. The only thing he asks for in return is love... ok maybe a few other things but mostly love.

That's the most condensed version of the New Testament I've ever seen...

Sorry, if humor is a sin, I'm toast but hey, it's Friday.

Leigh said...

Vera,

Baloney. You try to intimidate everyone here even if you have to reduce yourself to grammar attacks.

Vera


INTIMIDATE?? Pointing out your BS and correcting someone's grammar is intimidation? You have the worst persecution complex I've ever seen, on top of being a self righteous hypocrite.


The reason we die is so that people such as you do not live forever in your bitterness and hatefulness. Can you imagine?

Vera


The reason we die is because the biological systems of our bodies no longer function due to disease, malfunction, accident or age.

They let you be a nurse with this kind of grasp of biology????

Oh, let me guess, everyone who points out your BS is angry, right?



The web site I sent had Scriptures in it, which is why I sent it.

This is why you fail so hard and so consistently. Your grasp of science is that there is a place of eternal torment in the center of the earth and to verify your claim you point to a book of unverified claims and a tabloid.


Whether this man's recording is real or not is beyond my scope of being able to test it.

You don't have to test it. LOOK IT UP.


The Bible clearly states that the supernatural cannot be tested by natural means.

But yet, you blabber on about Hugh Ross and RTB all the time. If nothing in the bible can be tested by natural means then all the creation science you run your mouth about is useless....oh, wait we already knew that.


What you asked was where hell is. That web site explains clearly where it is.

That website is a bunch of speculation about a myth and unsubstantiated bad claims.


You seem to be under the delusion that somehow you will maintain your corporal body after death. That is not the case.

LOLOLOL!!! I'm not under the delusion that anything lives on after we die. When you die, you're dead. You took a hypothetical example I used and tried to turn it into something I believe.

Maybe this is why you didn't get that nursing job you went for. You can't freaking read.


Your soul is eternal and will live on either with God in heaven or in hell's fire. I would imagine that if you are anything in real life as you are on this list, that you live your life in sin. God will be happy to send you to the place of your choice - hell's fire where you will spend eternity weeping and gnashing your teeth. That means after a quadrillion years, you will still be there in torment. By your own freewill choice, that is what you choose because you refuse to acknowledge God. God says that at some point, He manifests Himself to every man. I believe there was a time for you. In your case, if you continue on this path, it will be hell's fire.

HELL HELL HELL HELL HELL HELLHELL HELL HELLHELL HELL HELLHELL HELL HELLHELL HELL HELLHELL HELL HELLHELL HELL HELLHELL HELL HELLHELL HELL HELLHELL HELL HELLHELL HELL HELLHELL HELL HELLHELL HELL HELLHELL HELL HELLHELL HELL HELLHELL HELL HELLHELL HELL HELLHELL HELL HELLHELL HELL HELLHELL HELL HELLHELL HELL HELLHELL HELL HELLHELL HELL HELLHELL HELL HELLHELL HELL HELL.

That's a summary of everything you write. Without objective, scientific proof of a hell, your claims are useless and your threats are even more useless.


We discuss many sin issues with people. I have fully debunked your argument with our banners.

Uh...NOOOOOOOOOOO. You debunked nothing. You trotted out some pics that actually proved my point. You don't go out and scream about every sin in the bible. You cherry pick which ones you want to scream at people about.

You asked if we spoke on lies. Liars are mentioned. Covetous are mentioned. Pot smokers are mentioned. But nothing ever satisfies you since you are the all-knowing Leigh.

I'm not all knowing, Vera, you just know so little that when it's pointed out to you, you can't handle it.

It's not about satisfying me. It's about backing up your claims.


You have no idea what we do or why.

Your whole blog tells me what you do and why.

But we would be happy to have you tag along and listen sometime. And for the record, we have never stood out in front of a ps and shouted at the students. We stand there quietly and hand out Bibles which are eagerly taken.

I wouldn't tag along with you anywhere. I wouldn't dare want someone to think I was affiliated with your eager bigotry.

Kids would early take poison if it tasted like kool-aid, so what's your point?

Sometimes 1500 Bibles leave our hands in a matter of minutes. We also target places where we know we will find sinners who are flagrantly sinning.

We've already established you can't mind your own business and feel like you need to poke your face into everybody else's. You don't need to keep proving that.

If they are drinking to get drunk, openly fornicating, etc, we address those sins because it is easy to do so.

You're a lying hypocrite. You have no business telling anyone what their supposed sins are.

You argument for abortion only proves where your wicked evil heart truly is. Anyone that can defend the murder of innocent children because they are in a stage of development is a reprobate believing evil is good and good is evil.

My heart is an organ in my chest that pumps blood. It is not wicked or evil. There are times when abortion is uncalled for and unnecessary. There are times when it's for the best. My opinion doesn't have to line up with your narrow view of the world to be valid.


You have no conscience anymore, Leigh. Your heart is so hardened toward sin and God that I don't know what could possibly get through to you anymore.

My conscience works just fine, thanks! My conscience is why I paid for the groceries of a man in front of me who got up to the checkout and didn't have enough money. That was just tonight, I'd just got paid and I helped him out. No strings, no yelling about how horrible his life must be without a sky wizard, no yelling about how he deserves to be set on fire and burned forever.

My conscience keeps me from hurting those around me and acting like an idiot in public with a signs and megaphones. Too bad you can't say the same about yours, Vera!

verandoug said...

ImaCamerican

See this is a good point in arguing the tower of Babel... the only answer I can come up with is that humans couldn't build towers and of course, it fell over and killed people and that made it into the book. Lesson of course is don't build any towers until you've learned how to build them.

Some ancient civilizations had better skills in building than we do today. I am thinking the pyramids and the Mayan temples.

Vera

verandoug said...

ImaCamerican

True, but maybe the Bible is someone's genius way of getting humans to rise out of the dark ages, but has been left out in the sun a little to long…

One unique thing about the Bible is that it contains something to test on just about every page. There are names, dates, leaders, and a few scientific facts. it isn't a science book and we know from John that if everything Jesus did were written in books, the world could not contain all the books. That tells us that everything done cannot be written in one Book. Thus, the Bible doesn't contain every last detail of events and circumstances. However, it does contain the most important points.

If someone were to share a synopsis of our conversation here, they might interject a few things said and the conclusion. That is the remarkable thing about these testable items. Space is taken to include them. Mostly what the Bible is doing is to help us to understand who God is. How does He think? Who is this Creator God? What is His heart on various matters of life? There is so much that I have learned through the Bible to help me to know God and it has changed the way I think. It has transformed my mind.

Folks like Leigh will see something about God in the Bible and assume that this Book could not be about God because the God of the Bible is also a Judge and comes in wrath at times against evil. Please don't misunderstand. The God that I know has loved me through some very difficult times and His mercy toward me has been beyond comprehension.

For ten righteous, God would not have destroyed Sodom. It appears from the story, that there was only one - Lot. His daughters surely weren't righteous. His wife looked back. God judged her too. The only reason that God has not destroyed America is because there are still ten righteous.

I think a lot of these misunderstandings about the Bible come from bad teaching. We assume that God should be all sweet and loving and kind. The funny thing is that most people such as Leigh would agree that animals such as t-rex were created before mankind was created. That would mean from a Biblical perspective that t-rex was created before man sinned. Many Christians who teach the all-loving God perspective would argue that t-rex didn't become fearsome until after man sinned. Yet, the Scriptures tell us that His invisible attributes are clearly seen from the creation of the world. That tells me that His terror is seen in nature right from the start. Thus, we should see animals that are terrifying and animals that are sweet and gentle.

Also some Christians believe that animals didn't die before man sinned. Yet God states clearly in Psalm 104:29-31 that the animals did die at some point during the creation process. If that passage isn't a description of the KT extinction event, I don't know what is. I get such a kick out of watching these recreations of this thing on PBS specials and seeing the dinosaurs terrified, which is the exact description the Bible gives as well. Then it says that He creates again and replenishes the earth. We know that He stopped creating after the 6th day. Therefore, animals died during the creation. Man did not die until he sinned. That is the exact thing Scripture teaches. Death passed to all men.

We are created in God's image. Do we not have moments where we are gentle and kind and others where we feel anger? We control our anger and don't act upon it. For example, when I read about people that are so gross and wicked such as Josef Fritzl who held his daughter captive for 24 years in their cellar, I was angry. Doing something like that to his daughter is sin. That is the kind of thing that is angering for God as well. He hates all workers of iniquity. Psalm 5:5 God's love is extended to each person in the cross and a pardon for sin. Could this man go to heaven if he genuinely repented? Yes. Does that mean he should be acquitted on this earth? No. Could Leigh be saved even after saying so many things about God? Absolutely.

Vera

verandoug said...

The thing is, they aren't trying to get people to do better. I don't know how it is in Canada, but here in the States, they are just trying to move our country into a theocracy where everyone follows the rules of the bible.

Leigh,

I don't know what America you live in but it surely isn't the one I live in where the murder of innocent children is allowed unabated even in the last trimester of pregnancy, people can walk nude at various parties such as Mardi Gras and Fantasy Fest, there are live sex shows in New Orleans bars, there are parades all across the country where homosexuals can act as vile as they wish, and children are exposed to men and women exposing their body parts to each other. I have footage of this but not even youtube will allow it to go up on their web site because it is so vile.

Christians have very little say in the politics of this nation. Obama's agenda will turn this country into a socialist nation. One thing you are right about is that many voted for him because of the color of his skin instead of checking out what his actual policies were. Even so called Christians voted for him knowing that he was for abortion. God help us.

Vera

verandoug said...

Leigh

Why is sleeping around 'never good'? It really doesn't matter whether it is good or bad, however,the fact is that it is none of anyone else's business.

There is a day of reckoning with God. When you stand before Him and are judged, you could potentially say, "Not one Christian ever approached me to tell me that my sin would get me thrown into hell's fire. I didn't know."

Ezekiel 33:8-9 says this, "When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

In addition, in Matthew 25, we are warned that we could possibly by cast into hell with the heathen if we do not multiply our talents. The multiplication would be to share what we have with others. If I go and hide my redemption under a rock and keep it to myself, I am no better than the heathen. If I have the attitude that your soul is not important but mine is special, then what does that say about me? It is reprehensible. It is the epitome of selfishness.

I don't know where this guy came from but there was an atheist that apparently knew enough about Scripture to know that a genuine Christian would do exactly what we are doing. I put that here on my blog: http://verandoug.blogspot.com/2008/12/interview-with-atheist.html

Vera

verandoug said...

Leigh

There is no 'absolute truth'.

And here lies your problem. That is true from your perspective because all truth is just fantasy and illusion in your worldview because you are just a mass of cells that happened to evolve. You are just an animal that happened to think a little better. In this way, you have no way to verify whether your opinion on politics, abortion, our preaching or anything else you believe is truth. There is no way to verify your opinions or judgments on any topic you have given your opinion on. It is all an illusion.

But in our world there is absolute Truth and the Truth set me free. I am no longer the person I was. Jesus said, "I am the way, the TRUTH and the life. No man comes to the Father except through me." There is absolute right and wrong.

Vera

verandoug said...

Leigh

I think the whole hell thing is either a misinterpretation of the Old Testament OR just a way keep people in line.

The reason we share hell's fire with you is to give you all the facts so that you will have a full understanding of your choices. You are a freewill agent that can choose. That is the truth. Be assured, God is very real. He loves you and would love for you to come to Him by faith. Step through the door of faith and you will have all the evidence you have ever desired. I do.

Vera

verandoug said...

Leigh

I don't know anybody that gets happy about abortion, the point here is that neither you, nor I, nor Vera and her magic book, have the right to tell these women what to do

Sure we do. We not only have a right but a responsibility to protect the innocent life that they carry. They are not that baby. Let that one sink in.

Vera

verandoug said...

Leigh

What I can't stand is when people like Vera get a wadded up over the fact that another religion other than hers is growing quickly. What hubris and ignorance.

That point was just to demonstrate where our policies on abortion were leading. Islam is a very controlling religion. Christianity has always stood for choice even if church leaders have acted in a way that is contrary to the Bible. Jesus clearly stated not to kill people because they didn't believe but to leave that for Him and the angels later. Matt 13:24-30. You would surely hate Islamic rule because you would have no choice but to pray to allah.

I'd prefer that NO religions grew at all and that we all learned to do the right thing just because it's good for society as a whole when we do. Fat chance that'll ever happen.

You speak a right thing here. Each person can choose to do the next right thing. Unfortunately, when we sin, we get entangled in it and it is very hard, if not impossible, to get out of it all by ourselves. We might be able to control our actions but not our thoughts. Jesus changes both through His Spirit. True believers are good honest people that do not aspire to greatness but are servants. The moment that you become a Christian, you enter a spiritual battle with the devil. When you are outside of this such as you are right now, you aren't a threat to his kingdom and so he won't do anything to you. There is no opposition in your life. Watch how hot the world becomes the minute you say, "I repent." satan can't stand you. So he will try to bring you down quickly. Were it not for the Spirit of God keeping me, I don't know where I would be today. Christians endure many things to bring you the good news.

Vera

verandoug said...

CH

Doesn't it seem strange to anybody that we atheists supposedly hold sway over society but can't even run for public office of the society we supposedly hold sway over?

You are in public office. All an atheist has to do is to pretend to be a Christian like Obama does. That man is no more a Christian than the man in the moon. He couldn't possibly believe there is a Holy God that he will give an account to one day. Bill and Hillary are not Christians either. John McCain is not a Christian.

The only two potential Christians that I know of in politics are Daniel Webster and Alan Keyes. There may be others but I think I can say that these two are the real deal. It is hard to say anymore because so many people have no clue what the gospel message actually is but these two seem to know.

The atheists have found a way around the system.

Vera

verandoug said...

Leigh

Let me ask you another question that you will dodge like a bullet, Vera. Do you think it is moral to pour gasoline on someone and set them on fire because they once did something wrong?

If not, why not? After all, your god would burn people for all eternity for doing the slightest thing wrong, like not believing in him or gluttony.


I am not the Judge. In essence, what you are suggesting here would be reprehensible because I am a sinner saved by grace who would be judging a fellow human for sin that I myself deserved the same judgment for. However, when we (myself included) are judged before a Holy God and perfection, we are undone. That is the difference between me judging and God judging. God's love is that He gave His only begotten Son so that you wouldn't go to hell's fire. He is offering you a complete and total pardon through the blood of Jesus. Your argument suggests that there is no hope. The truth is that there is hope in Him. And He gives you His Spirit and Word to set you free from sin.

Actually, the 2nd most abominable act imaginable is that you would worship some sky wizard who would burn people, even for one second, for not believing in him.

The 1st most abominable act imaginable is that he would do it.


Let's examine belief for a minute. If I believe that God is who He says He is, then I will do whatever it takes to come into His holiness. Belief is not just intellectual assent. It involves belief that leads to action. Your beliefs lead you to action. You wouldn't be posting here were it not for your beliefs.

With that in mind, our belief in Jesus is not in just His death on the cross but in what He said. What He said is that we needed to repent and be set free from sin by the power of His Spirit. Matthew 25 alone gives us several examples of things that Jesus said would get us sent to hell's fire such as not multiplying our talents, which does not refer to money but to people. And not caring for those in prison, sick, or in need.

May logic and reason peel through the crust of fairy land and superstition that has embedded itself in your brain.

There is plenty of evidence in nature and your conscience to convict you that what you believe is the fairy tale.

Vera

verandoug said...

Leigh

The bible also clearly states that slavery is ok and that you should be happy to bash open the heads of babies on rocks.

Not true. Slavery has always been a way of life for people. What the Bible did was to give humane treatment for slaves. You have slaves today. We generally call them the dishwasher, washing machine, dryer and hot water heater. You also buy many items made in China where people work for a pittance to make that item.

I put up a link to how the Bible dealt with slavery right here:
http://verandoug.blogspot.com/2008/02/founding-fathers-and-slavery.html

Vera

verandoug said...

Oh, and "something" must = god, right? See, this is why you should not attempt science, Vera. You're gonna hurt yourself.

Any person who has a sense of logic can see that something created equals a Creator.

Vera

verandoug said...

You're the Westboro Baptist Church, Vera. You and your hateful, ugly little "ministry" are a bunch of goons and religious fanatics that demand the right to tell everybody else how to live, and ****anybody else's rights. You're the self-appointed morality police.



You're the Taliban. And if people like you ever take over this country, as you want to do, it won't be America anymore. It'll be a Christian version of Iran or Saudi Arabia--and every bit as free.


Christians are for freedom. Where we would step in is to speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves such as babies who are being murdered every day in this country. We are against murder of the innocent. The Taliban does not stand for that.

I am against indecency and immoral behavior. Many of the recent swim suits expose so much skin as to be outlawed in public, imvho. Many of the women go topless on the beach unabated. I believe that pornography and sex shows should be outlawed. I believe that sex festivals should be outlawed. That is what Christians are supposed to do be - salt ( a preservative against evil) and light (shining in the darkness). Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men.

Vera

verandoug said...

weemaryanne

1) What's the evidence?
2) Who found it?
3) Where's it published?


Are you familiar with the multiverse theories?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse

Vera

Weemaryanne said...

(Aside to myself: No good can come of this. Nevertheless -- Onward!)

*******************

I've heard of the multiverse theory. What's that got to do with the evidence I've asked for (and which you have yet to produce)?

Let me guess where you're going with this:

"Because others, including physicists and cosmologists, have hypothesized that other universes may exist, this means that I, Vera, am completely justified in insisting that a place called hell does exist and has an Omnipotent Landlord. Furthermore, I am entirely within my rights to threaten people with eternal torture in this place on behalf of the Landlord, and to expect them to agree with me or at least to refrain from disagreeing out loud. If they disagree and point out that there's no evidence to support any of my claims, then they are the unreasonable ones. Q.E.D."

ImaCamerican said...

Vera:

Could this man go to heaven if he genuinely repented? Yes. Does that mean he should be acquitted on this earth?


Why not? Should we not judge the man as God would judge him? If he truely repented should he not be forgiven of his 'sin'? Does a human court have more standards then Gods? If a man's only sin is that he doesn't believe, does he get punished more then say Hitler who repents on his last day? The only answer I could argue is that God can see into the heart of Hitler and see that he has truly repented. But for God to forgive all his sins on that one fact seems very unfair even for God. To say that I've killed hundreds of people but at the time of my death I realize I was wrong shouldn't forgive me of causing those deaths only the reasoning I used to justify why I killed them. That doesn't undo the evil I have done only my motives for doing it.

Obama's agenda will turn this country into a socialist nation

If that is correct then Canada, France, and many other countries are socialist nations and we seem to be doing just fine. You can argue that our health care systems are socialist because everyone pays in according to their earnings but you can receive care despite what you've given. France took it one step farther and has universal dental to go with healthcare.

You also buy many items made in China where people work for a pittance to make that item.

Does that make buying these products a 'sin'? If a child is forced to create a T-shirt and you buy it, are you not saying it's ok to employ children against their will? The whole China thing is a big problem of mine. Our economy is based on the import of products made by 'slaves'. If we were to outlaw this practice our economy would crumble. Does buying these products make us hypocrites?

Any person who has a sense of logic can see that something created equals a Creator.

True, a building has a creator, but just because it does, doesn't make it alive. You also can't create something from nothing. Using that to prove God doesn't prove the Bible is the truth. You only prove something started everything, not that the 'creator' has a functioning, reasoning mind. I can believe something created the universe, but that doesn't bring me any closer to believing the Christian God was the creator.

Many of the recent swim suits expose so much skin as to be outlawed in public, imvho.

But being naked in itself is not a 'sin' is it? The person walking around naked isn't sinning unless they do it purposely to induce lust. I can wear a tank-top because it's hot outside, the person who looks at me with lust is the sinner. The motive behind the swimsuit is where the sin lies. Going to a nude beach in Europe might not be a sin because they don't do it to induce lust, they simply don't have the same sense of indecency as we do.

Here is Just a little bit about 'Theories' found on Wiki

They are 'rigorously tentative', meaning that they are proposed as true but expected to satisfy careful examination to account for the possibility of faulty inference or incorrect observation. Sometimes theories are falsified, meaning that an explicit set of observations contradicts some fundamental assumption of the theory, but more often theories are revised to conform to new observations

Theories of the bible are not 'revised'. You are not supposed to believe the bible based on evidence but based on faith. Faith cannot be proved by the scientific method, which is why creationism cannot be taught in schools. There are many things in the bible that have been proven to be false, but no revisions have ever been made to the bible. I don't think true Christians would allow the bible to be revised so it matches what has been scientifically proven or disproven.

This is my main problem with religion as a whole. God apparently gave us the ability to prove and disprove theories using the scientific method, so should we not use it to judge the teachings of bible? If God has given us this insight to understand how the universe works, would it be a sin to not use it?

Leigh said...

Vera,

I don't know what America you live in but it surely isn't the one I live in where the murder of innocent children is allowed unabated even in the last trimester of pregnancy, people can walk nude at various parties such as Mardi Gras and Fantasy Fest, there are live sex shows in New Orleans bars, there are parades all across the country where homosexuals can act as vile as they wish, and children are exposed to men and women exposing their body parts to each other. I have footage of this but not even youtube will allow it to go up on their web site because it is so vile.

If you don't like abortions, don't have one. I'm against late term abortions too, except int he case of something like the 9 year old that got pregnant not too long ago. I also think first term abortions are overused. But you have no right to get into the business of a woman having one unless you are going to take on the responsibility of raising every single child that you bitch about being aborted.

If you don't like Mardi Gras and FF, then don't go. You have NO RIGHT telling grown adults how they can spend their time.

I don't care about your footage. You've got nothing that I haven't seen worse of.

Christians have very little say in the politics of this nation. Obama's agenda will turn this country into a socialist nation. One thing you are right about is that many voted for him because of the color of his skin instead of checking out what his actual policies were. Even so called Christians voted for him knowing that he was for abortion. God help us.

Marxism doesn't do well, but a blend of socialism and capitalism works very well. To say that it doesn't is to say European countries who use it are failed countries and they are anything but. Pure, unadulterated capitalism preys on the weak and feeds off the misfortune of others.


There is a day of reckoning with God. When you stand before Him and are judged, you could potentially say, "Not one Christian ever approached me to tell me that my sin would get me thrown into hell's fire. I didn't know."

Ezekiel 33:8-9 says this, "When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

In addition, in Matthew 25, we are warned that we could possibly by cast into hell with the heathen if we do not multiply our talents. The multiplication would be to share what we have with others. If I go and hide my redemption under a rock and keep it to myself, I am no better than the heathen. If I have the attitude that your soul is not important but mine is special, then what does that say about me? It is reprehensible. It is the epitome of selfishness.

I don't know where this guy came from but there was an atheist that apparently knew enough about Scripture to know that a genuine Christian would do exactly what we are doing. I put that here on my blog: http://verandoug.blogspot.com/2008/12/interview-with-atheist.html


Every religion thinks there is some reckoning or some such. You may as well have saved yourself some potential carpel tunnel, because I'm not interested in your book of sheep herding mythology.


And what is it with you Christians thinking that saying someone was a former atheist but is not a brainwashed religious nut gives them any validity? Richard Dawkins could wake up tomorrow and declare that he had become just as big a self righteous xian as you are and that wouldn't change my mind. Without valid, falsifiable data as to why xianity has validity, it is just more meaningless mythology.

There is no 'absolute truth'.

And here lies your problem. That is true from your perspective because all truth is just fantasy and illusion in your worldview because you are just a mass of cells that happened to evolve. You are just an animal that happened to think a little better. In this way, you have no way to verify whether your opinion on politics, abortion, our preaching or anything else you believe is truth. There is no way to verify your opinions or judgments on any topic you have given your opinion on. It is all an illusion.


Liar. All truth is not fantasy, it is subjective and a lot of it changes. People used to think it was ok to enslave blacks and treat them subhuman and used the bible to back it up. That was 'true' for them and they had your god on their side to make it more 'true'. Thankfully, we've moved past that. Same with any other of the mores of society. They change.


I verify the truth of what I believe based on my ethics and morals, which are independent of your god and religion. I do my absolute best to do no harm to others and to help whenever I can. I don't need your friend that lives only in your head to tell me to do that, nor do I fear him or care about him.

But in our world there is absolute Truth and the Truth set me free. I am no longer the person I was. Jesus said, "I am the way, the TRUTH and the life. No man comes to the Father except through me." There is absolute right and wrong.


Wrong. Slavery was ok in the bible, now it isn't. Morals even change from one part of the bible to the other. A whole set of OT laws were discarded when the Jewish zombie came to town. That's not absolute.

The reason we share hell's fire with you is to give you all the facts so that you will have a full understanding of your choices.

No, you don't. You do it because it makes you feel like you are better than others, and you are too weak to handle life without imaginary friends.

You are a freewill agent that can choose. That is the truth. Be assured, God is very real. He loves you and would love for you to come to Him by faith.

He loves people so much he wants to burn them forever? Rest assured that if your god was real, I would tell him exactly what part of my anatomy he could rest his lips.

Step through the door of faith and you will have all the evidence you have ever desired. I do.

Confirmation bias. You want to believe something so you go looking for reasons to believe it and you interpret evidence to fit you bias.

There is a reason they call that crap site you love so much Reasons to believe and not "Verifiable, falsifiable, evidence to believe".

I said:
I don't know anybody that gets happy about abortion, the point here is that neither you, nor I, nor Vera and her magic book, have the right to tell these women what to do

Vera said:

Sure we do. We not only have a right but a responsibility to protect the innocent life that they carry. They are not that baby. Let that one sink in.


You have neither the right NOR the responsibility to stick your nose into the lives of others when it comes to decisions about how they conduct their lives, period. You rights and responsibilities end when you try to impose your religious delusion on others.

That point was just to demonstrate where our policies on abortion were leading. Islam is a very controlling religion. Christianity has always stood for choice even if church leaders have acted in a way that is contrary to the Bible.


Another lie. How much freedom was there during the Crusades, Vera?


Jesus clearly stated not to kill people because they didn't believe but to leave that for Him and the angels later. Matt 13:24-30. You would surely hate Islamic rule because you would have no choice but to pray to allah.

Jesus doesn't want to kill you, he justs gets off burning you.

Muslims are not coming to get you, Vera. Trust me, I don't think they'd have you.

You speak a right thing here. Each person can choose to do the next right thing. Unfortunately, when we sin, we get entangled in it and it is very hard, if not impossible, to get out of it all by ourselves. We might be able to control our actions but not our thoughts. Jesus changes both through His Spirit. True believers are good honest people that do not aspire to greatness but are servants. The moment that you become a Christian, you enter a spiritual battle with the devil. When you are outside of this such as you are right now, you aren't a threat to his kingdom and so he won't do anything to you. There is no opposition in your life. Watch how hot the world becomes the minute you say, "I repent." satan can't stand you. So he will try to bring you down quickly. Were it not for the Spirit of God keeping me, I don't know where I would be today. Christians endure many things to bring you the good news.


I used to be a xian, Vera. I prayed, fasted, repented, read the bible fastidiously. I was never, however in any battle with any mythological being called satan. Satan is a metaphor for the evil that MEN do, nothing more.

Cue the big self righteous Vera to tell me I was never a real xian. Save it, I'm not interested.

I am not the Judge. In essence, what you are suggesting here would be reprehensible because I am a sinner saved by grace who would be judging a fellow human for sin that I myself deserved the same judgment for. However, when we (myself included) are judged before a Holy God and perfection, we are undone. That is the difference between me judging and God judging. God's love is that He gave His only begotten Son so that you wouldn't go to hell's fire. He is offering you a complete and total pardon through the blood of Jesus. Your argument suggests that there is no hope. The truth is that there is hope in Him. And He gives you His Spirit and Word to set you free from sin.

My argument suggests one thing and one thing ONLY: That if it is ok and even a good thing for your god to burn people forever, then you should have no problem doing the same. Maybe you aren't a true christian, Vera.

Let's examine belief for a minute. If I believe that God is who He says He is, then I will do whatever it takes to come into His holiness. Belief is not just intellectual assent. It involves belief that leads to action. Your beliefs lead you to action. You wouldn't be posting here were it not for your beliefs.

With that in mind, our belief in Jesus is not in just His death on the cross but in what He said. What He said is that we needed to repent and be set free from sin by the power of His Spirit. Matthew 25 alone gives us several examples of things that Jesus said would get us sent to hell's fire such as not multiplying our talents, which does not refer to money but to people. And not caring for those in prison, sick, or in need.


LOL !!! Jesus will set you on fire forever for not caring for the sick and needy!! But yet he burns people!! PURE COMEDY GOLD!! Any being, no matter if it's a deity or a human, that would burn someone forever is worth only of derision, at best.

There is plenty of evidence in nature and your conscience to convict you that what you believe is the fairy tale.

Please present evidence for your claim, including any independently verifiable, falsifiable, objective evidence that has been peer reviewed by mainstream science. NOT a bible cut n paste job.

Not true. Slavery has always been a way of life for people. What the Bible did was to give humane treatment for slaves. You have slaves today. We generally call them the dishwasher, washing machine, dryer and hot water heater. You also buy many items made in China where people work for a pittance to make that item.

I put up a link to how the Bible dealt with slavery right here:
http://verandoug.blogspot.com/2008/02/founding-fathers-and-slavery.html



You have been brainwashed into believing that biblical slavery was a cake walk by people who have to defend it or their holy book looks bad. Your candy posterior wouldn't last 5 nanoseconds under biblical slavery.

Answer this question with a yes or no ONLY: Is it or is it not ok for people to own other people?

The answer, Vera, is NO!! I don't care how you treat them, humans are not property and your sick book of myth doesn't make it ok, not today and not thousands of years ago.

Any person who has a sense of logic can see that something created equals a Creator.

That's not logic. That is starting with a conclusion and looking for evidence that only supports your conclusion. You are saying that being must be present for things to be created. It certainly does not. And even if there were a creator that was a being...let's say a deity....he certainly hides pretty darn well, because he didn't leave a trace of himself behind. Just as well.

Leigh said...

MaryAnne said: Aside to myself: No good can come of this. Nevertheless -- Onward!)

I know the feeling!!

Leigh said...

Vera,

By the way, since you like slavery so much you might enjoy the Stormfront website. You probably aren't a white supremacist, but at least you would have something in common with them: they don't think slavery is a bad thing either and a LOT of them are Christians who LOVE to quote the bible to back up their slavery views.

I'm not going to link to it, because what they promote is as vile and filthy as what you promote, but I'm sure you could find your way there without too much trouble. You're already halfway there in your views. :)

Leigh said...

Vera,

By the way, Christian Arabs call god "Allah", too. Allah is an Arabic name for god.

Leigh said...

Vera,

Also, here's some thoughts on the bible and abortion:

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about/abortion.html

ImaCamerican said...

Vera:
Islam is a very controlling religion. Christianity has always stood for choice even if church leaders have acted in a way that is contrary to the Bible.

Leigh:
Another lie. How much freedom was there during the Crusades, Vera?


A lot of the Europeans that came to America did so to escape religious persecution. One small problem is the people who persecuted them actually followed them here. The Salam witch trials were a good example of that. Those Christians would tell you they were doing what the Bible had told them to do. They believed the devil was in their town. The people who were burned were not given any freedom or choice and most of them were in fact faithful Christians and were convicted with little to NO evidence of doing something wrong. This is why taking the bible as absolute truth is dangerous. Most of the scientists that helped create all you see here today did so by putting aside their faith. What they were learning at times went against it. Some even risked their lives because they even questioned it. This is why we always have to ‘question God’ if we don’t our knowledge can’t keep moving forward. If you truly believe that Jesus is coming back and it could be fairly soon, then why develop new medicine or continue to create new technology. It’s the questioning of that return that keeps us moving forward. If every answer ended in ‘God did it’ you still have to keep asking ‘how’ he did it and possibly ‘why’ he did it. You can’t expect to the answer to end in ‘God did it’. If no one ever did that, we’d still be in the dark ages. If we had truly believed that God created the universe, would we have ever asked how? No, because we would have taken the bible as truth and lived as it told us to live. So you can’t believe what’s in the Bible because everything we have learned by questioning it ends up disproving it. So if parts of it are untrue and proved to be so, how can we follow the book as being true? We end up believing parts of the book, and different people believe different parts. This ends up being a platform for arguing which parts are true and which are not. There is no way to know for sure, which makes it a bad book to base a belief on. This is why my questioning of God stems from the bible. I just can't seem to believe the bible is the 'Word' of God, instead I can only believe it is part of the first questions we had about our existence and ideas on how these questions could be answered. Humans were not satisfied with these answers and set about to find new ones. That was the birth of science. So basically we can thank the bible for bringing about scientific discovery.

ImaCamerican said...

Vera:
You are a freewill agent that can choose. That is the truth. Be assured, God is very real. He loves you and would love for you to come to Him by faith.


You can't call it 'freewill' if the penaltie for not believing is torture. Which is exactly what the bible teaches.

ImaCamerican said...

Vera:
It astounds me how little folks from your group know about biology. Just take the reproductive system and the growth and development of a baby in the womb. There are aspects of this that are so complicated that it blows your mind. As a nurse, I have to know when these events occur and why. It is absurd to believe that these things evolved without design.



The development of a baby in the womb is based on replication. DNA controls such replication and has evolved over thousands of years, gathering different genes that had advantages over other genes and there for successfully replication more often. Now you could argue that God created DNA, but ok that makes him a 'designer' but the fact that it replicates imperfectly almost constantly doesn't show any 'intelligent' designer. If you've ever seen a Siamese twin you will see evidence of failed replication. Now if during replication there is a result that is not an advantage, the gene doesn't just disappear, we still carry many genes in our DNA that are no longer used but at times can be 'accidently' turned on as with Hypertrichosis or human werewolf syndrome. So if God is the designer why do we still have those genes in our DNA?

You may know when conception begins and why but as you start to learn how it happens; you see the design of these events is flawed and imperfect. In fact you begin to see that all the life around us exists BECAUSE that design is imperfect

ImaCamerican said...

Vera:
And here lies your problem. That is true from your perspective because all truth is just fantasy and illusion in your worldview because you are just a mass of cells that happened to evolve.


I happen to be a mass of cells that evolved so sucsessfully it produced.. ME :)

There is no way to verify your opinions or judgments on any topic you have given your opinion on. It is all an illusion.

See that statement applies to both of you. Vera you can't verify anything you believe or judge to be true either making it just as likely to be an illusion.

ImaCamerican said...

Vera:
The reason we share hell's fire with you is to give you all the facts so that you will have a full understanding of your choices.


Yes but you do so with no proof that Hell's fire is even one of the choices.

sorry I'm bouncing all over here...

ImaCamerican said...

Jesus said, "I am the way, the TRUTH and the life.

What he should have added was, don't follow me blindly or you won't learn anything.

Step through the door of faith and you will have all the evidence you have ever desired. I do.

Even with faith I still have no evidence. Should I stop looking for such evidence? The quest to continue to find that evidence is what has brought about science and will hopefully continue for the sake of our species. If we want human life to continue we must admit that the lifespan of our earth is not infinite. We need to continue to search for answers to that problem. If we give in to our faith we have no reason to fear such an event because everyone would be judged and go to their respective destinations. Heaven or Hell.

If you truly believe then you should have no fear of nuclear war or any other such event. Which means people with true faith, and perhaps false unquestioning faith, could destroy humanity without guilt of killing the innocent, expecting those to continue to exist in either heaven or hell. Such people might even welcome the end of the world as it being part of Gods plain and therefore have no drive to intervene on such an event. True faith may take away all fear and fear is a big part of life attempting to stay living. A fear of death is actually a blessing because it causes us to strive to continue life. Hence the field of medicine. If the existence of the afterlife is so much better then the existence we have not then what's to keep people from welcoming it?

captain howdy said...

Vera--

The atheists have found a way around the system.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

What do you mean we've "found a way around the system"? I thought we had "mastery" of the system. Why should we have to find a way around a system we control?

Vera, you're trying to tell us that atheists are in control of America. I'm pointing out that to exercise all our rights we have to impersonate a Christian, which is what you accuse Obama of doing. Why would we have to try to pass ourselves off as Christians just to run for public office if we atheists really control everything like you say we do?



Just answer that question. I don't want to know what you think of Barak Obama. I don't want to know what you think of Bill Clinton, or Hillary Clinton, or Monica Lewinski, either.

Just explain why we atheists should have to pretend to be Christians just to hold state office if we really control everything like you say we do?



When you made that remark about atheists you said something that was not only false, but obviously false. The rest of your rant isn't much better.

captain howdy said...

Oh, and Vera--I like this:

Christians are for freedom...

...but in the very next breath...

I am against indecency and immoral behavior. Many of the recent swim suits expose so much skin as to be outlawed in public, imvho. Many of the women go topless on the beach unabated. I believe that pornography and sex shows should be outlawed. I believe that sex festivals should be outlawed.



We Christians are for freedom!

The freedom to close sex shops. The freedom to arrest women in swimsuits. The freedom to make pornography illegal. The freedom to harass anyone going to a gay bar. The freedom to disrupt and harass and even threaten workers at a Planned Parenthood clinic.

Why, those are freedoms too, aren't they?

ImaCamerican said...

Hey Vera.. Can you start a new blog talking about women in Christianity? I haven't hit that yet in my study...well I have in a way... I probably should have started the NT, the OT is very confusing on it's own, I know they fix things up in the NT but I'm beginning to think it should be at the beginning and the OT should be part 2... (What the... my ver word is refer... are these really 'words')

verandoug said...

Another piece of trivia. They apparently found something on an asteroid that when hit with lightening creates something like an empty cell membrane. The theory was that protein on earth may have entered such a membrane and helped create the first cell. I don't know where that fits in religiously

IC,

You have come to many of the conclusions others have come to by trying to find God. I didn't come at God from this perspective, but Hugh Ross did. He is a Canadian. (just had to mention that :-) ) Anyway, when he went to school, he studied astrophysics from a very early age because apparently in Vancouver, that is all there is to do - study. To round out his education, the teachers told him that he would have to study a humanity. He chose to set out to disprove all religions of the world. The way he decided to do it was to use holy books since each religion claimed that God was speaking through their holy book. What he did was to divide his criteria into 3 or 4 sections - history, prophecy, and science are the three I remember. He had two columns on each page. One for untruths and one for truths.

He said that when he was studying these books, it was a) difficult to find something to put to the test and b) was written in esoteric language that only the "enlightened" could understand. But eventually, he did find something to put to the test and when he did, 99.9% of the time, the writer got it wrong. One example that he mentioned was the Hindu Vedas speak of a civilization on the dark side of the moon. We couldn't know that until recent times but of course, back in those days they didn't know that.

He purposely saved the Bible for last. He had never read a Bible in his life. He had only studied secular science. As far as I know, he didn't know any of the problems in the church either including this horrible idea that God created the world in 6 literal days.

So he opens the first page, and to his surprise he reads Genesis 1 and realizes that Moses describes the initial conditions of the earth exactly as they are described in science. It was a dark, lifeless water world. He also noted that Moses spoke of a beginning. Most holy books describe the universe coming from something else. Then the second thing he noted was that Moses got all 13 creation events in the right order. See all these holy books had creation stories too but not one of them came close to getting the events in the right order. That impressed Hugh Ross. So he calculated what the odds were of Moses, with his primitive skills, getting those in the right order and his calculation came to about 10^80.

The other thing that impressed him about the Bible was that it was written in a language that anyone could understand and just about every single page had something that could be put to the test. He said that, to him, it mirrored nature. There were names and dates and figures. From his experience studying science, this Book matched what he knew in nature. After a long time, he had a column full of facts and not one thing that was in error. He said there were things that he didn't understand, but that there are things in the record of nature that we don't understand yet either so that didn't bother him. And that is how he came to know God and believe. This man has done an incredible work taking science and demonstrating how it is in harmony with the Word of God

It is good to seek God. I think you will surely find Him. Start reading the Bible. Try a NKJV. It might be easier for you to read.

Vera

verandoug said...

I missed something, I really need to reply then back away from the computer...

The line that has become so fuzzy of late revolves around sex. Most non-Christians will agree, for example, that hurting someone else such as stealing is wrong. But they would not find sexual deviance or lust wrong

See I think lust is wrong. Lust never makes you happy. I've had lots of 'lust' but only one 'love'. I'd marry him but I can't decide who'd be worthy of performing the ceremony. I don't trust politicians or any religious organization... Can we marry ourselves? Does commonlaw count?

(LOL my verification word is 'prats' which to me sounds a lot like 'drats' which would be on subject for this reply)


You can go to the justice of the peace. Is that politics?

The thing is that the whole idea of marriage is a covenant, not a contract. A contract can be broken. A covenant cannot be broken. What you are doing is vowing to stay with this person no matter what happens. Now that can be a tough pill to swallow because lots of things can happen. People can get sick. We could lose lots of money. Our house could get blown over by a hurricane. That is just to name a few things that have happened to my husband and me in the last 23 years. But in all of that, my husband would look at me and say, "I will never leave you." See it is one thing to be married and boast of your commitment when you've never been through anything. It is another thing to boast in the Lord when lots of things have happened. I wouldn't have it any other way. I think that I have the best life imaginable even though I have suffered. Each difficult thing I have gone through, as long as I stayed faithful, brought me closer to my husband and God and brought a depth to the relationship that was beyond comprehension. Most people today split and get angry and bitter and break up. A wise man once said that divorce doesn't solve problems. Instead it creates a whole new set of problems. I think he was right.

Vera

verandoug said...

weemaryanne

I am conversing with another group that I had to make a priority this week.

Here are some quotes by Einstein on God. All I did was Google this. Now I have to ask myself, do you ever investigate your own assertions before you boast in your victory?

http://www.tricity.wsu.edu/~dcarrell/einstein/quotesaboutgod.htm

Please see my post above to IC on Hugh Ross's testimony. You are dead wrong about the Bible being testable. The Bible has so many things that can be put to the test until it boggles the mind. It stands out above every holy book for that reason and it is things that are easily understood. I believe they have mapped out the KJV and scientifically discerned that it is readable by a 5th grader. Why don't you read it occasionally instead of listening to other people and their phony baloney critiques.

Vera

verandoug said...

weemaryanne

If belief is a choice, then why don't you choose to believe, or perhaps re-believe, in Santa Claus?

In the same way that you put a scientific theory to the test, you can put a spiritual theory or idea to the test whether it is the flying spaghetti monster, lettucey or santa.

The legend of the modern day version of santa states that he lives at the North Pole, has flying reindeer that circle the globe delivering toys to millions of children in 24 hours (except the ones that don't live in America which seems rather cheesy) , and that He has elves for workers.

Each and every one of these statements can be put to the test and lo and behold, we find that it is a manmade idea. We need to see for ourselves that a reindeer can fly and that time can stand still. There should be a trail that would lead us to that conclusion.

How can God be put to the test? One thing that He claims is your conscience. He states that He has manifest Himself to every man. Whether you deny this fact or not, I believe He is true and you are a liar. I believe He did manifest Himself to you at one point in your life even if you were very young. Your conscience also bears witness to God. You know right from wrong and judge Christians, if nothing else, to be evil. Who told you that? How do you know that what Christians do is evil? Much of what you accuse the church of doing is truly evil. No question. The church today is full of hypocrites. That is mostly what my husband and I do is to dismantle this hypocritical teaching that has come down through the ages.

The second proof is the record of nature. The facts in the Bible that speak of these things are absolutely true and right and that is what makes you without excuse. You will not stand before Him, weemaryanne and say, "I didn't have a clue."

There are so many predictions made in the Bible that stand true. The very fact that one who is perishing finds the gospel to be foolishness is one.

Vera

verandoug said...

Weemaryanne

I love it when you share a little of your life with me.

You'll have to take my word for it, V dear, but my parents were not hypocrites. They believed, my mother died a believer, and my elderly father continues to be a believer. Furthermore, with 1.5 high school educations between them, they weren't scientists either.

How neat. Could it be possible that your dear mom prayed that her precious daughter would spend eternity with her in heaven and someday come home to God and so God arranged for us to link up here so that I could share with you who God is. Could that daddy be praying for you?

I always got the impression that you were more my age around 50ish . I could be wrong. But that is what I conjectured by some of the things you've said. You and I didn't really grow up in the mass hypocrisy that the youth grow up in today. It is epidemic. There was still a large number of genuine Christians back then.

Did you believe then once? Did you get an education and feel that your parents lack thereof made them less than you?

Vera

verandoug said...

INTIMIDATE?? Pointing out your BS and correcting someone's grammar is intimidation? You have the worst persecution complex I've ever seen, on top of being a self righteous hypocrite.

See you have judged what I have said as BS. That word is a form of intimidation. Everything you write and say is laced with intimidation tactics. They don't work. But you try. LOL Your opinion, in your own mind, is superior to God's Word, God, and His obvious work in this universe. It is ridiculous, Leigh. Grow up!!!!

Vera

verandoug said...

The reason we die is so that people such as you do not live forever in your bitterness and hatefulness. Can you imagine?

Vera

The reason we die is because the biological systems of our bodies no longer function due to disease, malfunction, accident or age.


Exactly. And the reason this is within God's design is because you would live forever in error. The only thing that might humble you in the end is your own demise. Without humility, you cannot receive His grace. Your proud heart keeps you from God.

Vera

verandoug said...

They let you be a nurse with this kind of grasp of biology????

Oh, let me guess, everyone who points out your BS is angry, right?


I rarely point out bitterness unless it is as obvious as yours is.

Vera

verandoug said...

The web site I sent had Scriptures in it, which is why I sent it.

This is why you fail so hard and so consistently. Your grasp of science is that there is a place of eternal torment in the center of the earth and to verify your claim you point to a book of unverified claims and a tabloid.


Science is the study of the natural world. If the correct potassium level in blood is 3.1-5.0 mEq/L, it doesn't matter if you're an atheist, agnostic or a Christian. None of those things changes those facts.


Whether this man's recording is real or not is beyond my scope of being able to test it.

You don't have to test it. LOOK IT UP.


Let's say that I am supernaturally healed of something. I still have the same physical parameters so that someone like you would always claim that this was a coincidence or that it could have happened because X,Y, and Z of life came together. The remarkable part of X,Y, and Z coming together is that they came together unexplained without anyone trying to do it. If you repeated the process a hundred times over, you wouldn't be able to figure the odds of this happening again the same way. But it is still natural phenomenon that happened. In the OT and the NT there were several occurrences where God did a fiat miracle and people were clueless because natural phenomenon were used. One example is when Jesus fed the 5000. Not even His disciples had that figured out.

Could this be repeatable? Yes and no. Yes, because of course, God could do it again. But no because He generally doesn't do circus acts. He does things like that for a purpose. When satan wanted Jesus to jump from the building because Scripture states that the angels wouldn't allow Him to be hurt, Jesus wouldn't put God to the test that way. Would Snopes.com make a claim against the feeding of the 5000 or the parting of the Red Sea because it wasn't repeatable? Probably.

The Bible clearly states that the supernatural cannot be tested by natural means.

But yet, you blabber on about Hugh Ross and RTB all the time. If nothing in the bible can be tested by natural means then all the creation science you run your mouth about is useless....oh, wait we already knew that.


What Hugh Ross has done is to prove that the scientific evidence that we now know is true through secular scientific research matches the Biblical account of it and he has also demonstrated how fallacious the YEC view is and how it doesn't fit the Bible.

Vera

verandoug said...

What you asked was where hell is. That web site explains clearly where it is.

That website is a bunch of speculation about a myth and unsubstantiated bad claims.


I do not know the exact address of either heaven or hell. I can only go by the few breadcrumbs that God shares about where it is.

You seem to be under the delusion that somehow you will maintain your corporal body after death. That is not the case.

LOLOLOL!!! I'm not under the delusion that anything lives on after we die. When you die, you're dead. You took a hypothetical example I used and tried to turn it into something I believe.

Maybe this is why you didn't get that nursing job you went for. You can't freaking read.


I think I can read. Perhaps you can't write. :-)

You said, "Now, if I'm going to retain my physical body and burn in hell, that's ok, too. Think about it. A physical body, even in a house fire, can only burn for what? Maybe a few minutes before being completely consumed."

Your soul is eternal and will live on either with God in heaven or in hell's fire. I would imagine that if you are anything in real life as you are on this list, that you live your life in sin. God will be happy to send you to the place of your choice - hell's fire where you will spend eternity weeping and gnashing your teeth. That means after a quadrillion years, you will still be there in torment. By your own freewill choice, that is what you choose because you refuse to acknowledge God. God says that at some point, He manifests Himself to every man. I believe there was a time for you. In your case, if you continue on this path, it will be hell's fire.

HELL HELL HELL HELL HELL HELLHELL HELL HELLHELL HELL HELLHELL HELL HELLHELL HELL HELLHELL HELL HELLHELL HELL HELLHELL HELL HELLHELL HELL HELLHELL HELL HELLHELL HELL HELLHELL HELL HELLHELL HELL HELLHELL HELL HELLHELL HELL HELLHELL HELL HELLHELL HELL HELLHELL HELL HELLHELL HELL HELLHELL HELL HELLHELL HELL HELLHELL HELL HELLHELL HELL HELLHELL HELL HELLHELL HELL HELL.

That's a summary of everything you write. Without objective, scientific proof of a hell, your claims are useless and your threats are even more useless.


Spiritual truth is discerned, not proven through science of our natural world. I am warning you about hell because I want you to know where your choice is leading you for all of eternity. I mean, it is your choice. I can't make it for you. Knowing therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men. He is so powerful. I mean we are sitting on this tinsy microscopic planet in this unfathomable universe. The God that created that has the power to throw you into hell's fire and you won't be able to mock your way out. In the end, you will wish I had added a few more HELLs to your list to get through to you. How wonderful it would be for you to be in heaven one day instead. That is really what you would choose. You would give up everything for that to be with God for all of eternity. There is no party in hell. The party is in heaven.

We discuss many sin issues with people. I have fully debunked your argument with our banners.

Uh...NOOOOOOOOOOO. You debunked nothing. You trotted out some pics that actually proved my point. You don't go out and scream about every sin in the bible. You cherry pick which ones you want to scream at people about.


Wrong again. We speak on every single sin that separates you from God.

You asked if we spoke on lies. Liars are mentioned. Covetous are mentioned. Pot smokers are mentioned. But nothing ever satisfies you since you are the all-knowing Leigh.

I'm not all knowing, Vera, you just know so little that when it's pointed out to you, you can't handle it.

It's not about satisfying me. It's about backing up your claims.


I don't know everything. I learn something new every day.

You have no idea what we do or why.

Your whole blog tells me what you do and why.


Good

But we would be happy to have you tag along and listen sometime. And for the record, we have never stood out in front of a ps and shouted at the students. We stand there quietly and hand out Bibles which are eagerly taken.

I wouldn't tag along with you anywhere. I wouldn't dare want someone to think I was affiliated with your eager bigotry.


And you are a bigot against those who are righteous and stand in the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus.

We target places where we know we'll find sinners. Most of them think they are saved and Christians. We point out the obvious sins in those places. So for example, if we are at a homosexual rally, we are going to point out that homosex is sin. If we are in front of an abortion clinic, we are going to talk about murder. If we are in front of a Muslim mosque, we are going to talk about how the Law cannot make man righteous. We let our conversation fit the place we are at. Since you refuse to listen in, you have no right to judge.

Vera

Leigh said...

Vera,

See you have judged what I have said as BS. That word is a form of intimidation. Everything you write and say is laced with intimidation tactics. They don't work. But you try. LOL Your opinion, in your own mind, is superior to God's Word, God, and His obvious work in this universe. It is ridiculous, Leigh. Grow up!!!!

If you think that I am attempting to intimidate you then you are only showing your typical xain persecution complex. I have strong opinions and I state them strongly, as do you. Stating an opinion strongly is NOT intimidation. Your constant whining about so called intimidation attempts is nothing more than a lame cry of perceived persecution.

The word BS is NOT a form of intimidation. It is a judgment yes, but even more so it is discernment. Also, if you are going to call judgments and discernment intimidation then you have to accept the fact that what you do with your signs and screaming at people in public about their supposed 'sins', is also an intimidation tactic.

Please put way your persecution syndrome.

I hardly think that I am the one that needs to 'grow up' when I am not the one screaming at people in public about parts of their lives that are none of my business. You and your ilk need to grow up and leave people to conduct their lives as they see fit. If no laws are being broken, then it is not your place to mettle into the affairs of others.

Exactly. And the reason this is within God's design is because you would live forever in error. The only thing that might humble you in the end is your own demise. Without humility, you cannot receive His grace. Your proud heart keeps you from God.

You can't have it both ways. Either your original statement is true; that is that we "we die is so that people such as you do not live forever in your bitterness and hatefulness" or your second statement is true; "the reason this is within God's design is because you would live forever in error. The only thing that might humble you in the end is your own demise. Without humility, you cannot receive His grace. Your proud heart keeps you from God."

In one claim, there is a scientific basis for death and in the other there is not. Since you can not prove that we die because death is within your deity's design, then your second claim is false.

Also, I am not concerned in the least that you think I'm bitter. Logic and reason are often called bitterness by those who can not comprehend how to use them.

You think everyone who has a strong opinion that is different than yours is bitter and trying to persecute you, therefore, your claim is meaningless.


Science is the study of the natural world. If the correct potassium level in blood is 3.1-5.0 mEq/L, it doesn't matter if you're an atheist, agnostic or a Christian. None of those things changes those facts.

Once again, you want to claim that science is the study of the natural world and that it can not be used to study spiritual things, however you cling to the ignorance spouted by RTB when they use a SPIRITUAL book to try to make claims about the natural world. Again, when any of those claims make it into mainstream, peer reviewed scientific journals, let me know.

This is another reason you claim intimidation, persecution and bitterness. You said to Steven J. the other day at Comfort's site that we often project our own faults on to to others. You have done exactly that. People repeatedly give you the opportunity to clearly prove any of the claims you make, but instead your bitterness towards people that do not hold your values and beliefs shines through and you claim intimidation.

Let's say that I am supernaturally healed of something.

NO. We are not going to say that because what you have done is a common thing you do here. You introduce a red herring argument in place of addressing the original argument. I've looked over your writings and how you interact with the people that comment here. Red herring is one of your favorite techniques when you want to completely skirt an issue. It will not work with me. Either stick to the topic and answer the question as asked or answer the topic as presented or don't bother.

You use so many logical fallacies in your answers and thought processes that to tackle you on each one would be so time consuming I'd have no time left for anything else. It would also be futile, since even when they are pointed out to you, instead of learning what a logical fallacy is, you just keep repeating the same thing over and over.

What Hugh Ross has done is to prove that the scientific evidence that we now know is true through secular scientific research matches the Biblical account of it and he has also demonstrated how fallacious the YEC view is and how it doesn't fit the Bible.

Please point to any mainstream, peer reviewed scientific journals where Hugh Ross has proven any biblical accounts to be true.


I do not know the exact address of either heaven or hell. I can only go by the few breadcrumbs that God shares about where it is.


Without an exact location, any claim made as to the existence of a heaven or hell is pure speculation.



I think I can read. Perhaps you can't write. :-)

I can write quite well. You just skip over any part of something that you do not like or agree with or can not answer and dodge what is written. Like I said before, common tactic with you.

Spiritual truth is discerned, not proven through science of our natural world.

Then admit that your claims can not be demonstrated and therefore are only speculation and conjecture.

I am warning you about hell because I want you to know where your choice is leading you for all of eternity. I mean, it is your choice. I can't make it for you. Knowing therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men

You have claimed that hell is a physical place of torture and that it is located in the center of the earth. Please let me know when scientists have drilled down to the center of the earth and brought back proof for your claim. Do not direct me to a debunked tabloid piece. Until then, your claims of hell are unverified speculation.


He is so powerful.

Why has your god never regenerated the limb of an amputee? He supposedly can make a universe, can make humans and all manner of life, yet can not regenerate the limb of an amputee.

Any stories that you might have of this happening need to be independently verified and falsifiable or they are invalid.


I mean we are sitting on this tinsy microscopic planet in this unfathomable universe. The God that created that has the power to throw you into hell's fire and you won't be able to mock your way out.

This is an unverified claim that is speculation at best and myth at worst.


In the end, you will wish I had added a few more HELLs to your list to get through to you. How wonderful it would be for you to be in heaven one day instead. That is really what you would choose. You would give up everything for that to be with God for all of eternity.


This is an unverified claim that is speculation at best and myth at worst.


There is no party in hell. The party is in heaven.

I'm not concerned with parties. I'm concerned with your unverified claims, bad science, telling others how to live their lives and question dodging.

Wrong again. We speak on every single sin that separates you from God.


No, you do not. I have already addressed this.

And you are a bigot against those who are righteous and stand in the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus.

Wrong again. I have nothing against moderate xians who mind their own business and do not make unsubstantiated claims as truth, for which they have no evidence.

What I do not tolerate is your hypocrisy and being obtrusive into the lives of adults who can make their own choices in life.


We target places where we know we'll find sinners. Most of them think they are saved and Christians. We point out the obvious sins in those places. So for example, if we are at a homosexual rally, we are going to point out that homosex is sin. If we are in front of an abortion clinic, we are going to talk about murder. If we are in front of a Muslim mosque, we are going to talk about how the Law cannot make man righteous. We let our conversation fit the place we are at. Since you refuse to listen in, you have no right to judge.

You have no right to judge, period. I don't care what your magic book of myth tells you. As long as no laws are being broken, you have no right to mettle in the affairs of other grown adults who can make their own choices in life.

Everything else in your paragraph contains unsubstantiated claims and conjecture.


Now, back to the latest in a long line of questions you have dodged.

Please answer yes or no to the following question: Is it ok for human beings to own one another as property?

verandoug said...


We've already established you can't mind your own business and feel like you need to poke your face into everybody else's. You don't need to keep proving that.


That's right and we do it on purpose because we don't want them to spend eternity in hell's fire. We care. You don't.

You're a lying hypocrite. You have no business telling anyone what their supposed sins are.

A hypocrite would sit on his b-hind in a pew somewhere and could care less about you. He's going to heaven. If you're in hell's fire burning for eternity because you didn't understand, that's your problem, not his. Why should he care about your choice or not? As far as he's concerned, he's taking the easy road and minding his own business. That is a monstrous action. Jesus explained how He viewed those actions in Matthew 25. So I take a little flack to share the truth with you. It is a small insignificant price to pay to hopefully get you to open up your spiritual eyes.

My heart is an organ in my chest that pumps blood.

Wow. How out of touch with reality can you possibly get?

It is not wicked or evil. There are times when abortion is uncalled for and unnecessary. There are times when it's for the best. My opinion doesn't have to line up with your narrow view of the world to be valid.

The only time an abortion has ever been accepted (even before Roe v. Wade) is when the mother's life is in danger and even then, it was usually a family member making a very difficult choice - the mom or the baby. The rest is murder. Most abortions are for convenience and nothing else. And I just want to say that the fact that stoopid women used coat hangers to do this evil act in the past does not make the modern day version righteous. Both are wicked and evil. It's like saying that we should now give murderers the availability of lethal injection for those they hate since in times past they used to blow their brains out with a gun. That is the dumbest rationale on the planet.

My conscience works just fine, thanks! My conscience is why I paid for the groceries of a man in front of me who got up to the checkout and didn't have enough money. That was just tonight, I'd just got paid and I helped him out. No strings, no yelling about how horrible his life must be without a sky wizard, no yelling about how he deserves to be set on fire and burned forever.

We do that too. Big deal. Did you buy him a new outfit and offer to take him home with you? Did you make sure he had a warm bed to sleep in? How much money did you spend in comparison to the money you have? You can always do more. Jesus said that the one that gave all that she had to live on gave more than the rich man that threw his quarter in. What about you? How do you hold up against that standard?

My conscience keeps me from hurting those around me and acting like an idiot in public with a signs and megaphones. Too bad you can't say the same about yours, Vera!

You no longer have a functioning conscience which is why you judge evil as good and good as evil.

Vera

Leigh said...

Vera,


That's right and we do it on purpose because we don't want them to spend eternity in hell's fire. We care. You don't.



I repeat, ALL claims that you make of hell are unverified speculations at best and myth at worst.

As I stated above:

You have claimed that hell is a physical place of torture and that it is located in the center of the earth. Please let me know when scientists have drilled down to the center of the earth and brought back proof for your claim. Do not direct me to a debunked tabloid piece. Until then, your claims of hell are unverified speculation.

A hypocrite would sit on his b-hind in a pew somewhere and could care less about you. He's going to heaven. If you're in hell's fire burning for eternity because you didn't understand, that's your problem, not his. Why should he care about your choice or not? As far as he's concerned, he's taking the easy road and minding his own business. That is a monstrous action. Jesus explained how He viewed those actions in Matthew 25. So I take a little flack to share the truth with you. It is a small insignificant price to pay to hopefully get you to open up your spiritual eyes.

All claims that you make about the existence of heaven and hell are unverified speculations at best and myth at worst. If these places are physical as you have claimed, then back up that claim with independent, verified, peer reviewed scientific evidence.

If you make the claim that these places are spiritual only, then you have proven yourself a lair, since you just claimed they were physical.


In refrence to my stating that the heart is an organ in my chest which pumps blood you stated the following:

Wow. How out of touch with reality can you possibly get?


Please present evidence that the heart is not an organ in my chest that pumps blood. How is possible that you are a nurse and you can make the claim that the heart is not an organ in my chest that pumps blood?

The only time an abortion has ever been accepted (even before Roe v. Wade) is when the mother's life is in danger and even then, it was usually a family member making a very difficult choice - the mom or the baby.

Let me fix that for you:

"The only time an abortion has ever been accepted BY ME(even before Roe v. Wade) is when the mother's life is in danger and even then, it was usually a family member making a very difficult choice - the mom or the baby.



The rest is murder.

That is strictly your opinion and nothing more. You have no right to impose that opinion on anyone else.

Most abortions are for convenience and nothing else. And I just want to say that the fact that stoopid women used coat hangers to do this evil act in the past does not make the modern day version righteous.

When abortion became legal first trimester abortions became extremely safe and women stopped dying.


Both are wicked and evil. It's like saying that we should now give murderers the availability of lethal injection for those they hate since in times past they used to blow their brains out with a gun.

No, it is not like saying that. That is one of the most failed analogies you have made to date. I have no doubt that you will out do yourself in the near future.

That is the dumbest rationale on the planet.

No, one of the dumbest rationales on this planet is that a patriarchal sky wizard poofed the universe into existence and chose ignorant goat herders to be the keepers of all his so called laws and that we should pay any attention to the fact that people still believe this garbage.


We do that too. Big deal. Did you buy him a new outfit and offer to take him home with you? Did you make sure he had a warm bed to sleep in? How much money did you spend in comparison to the money you have? You can always do more. Jesus said that the one that gave all that she had to live on gave more than the rich man that threw his quarter in. What about you? How do you hold up against that standard?

No, I didn't do those things for him in particular because he only needed groceries.

The fact that one can always do more does not mean that one did nothing.


You have a choice: either women can die getting back alley abortions or fetuses can be terminated legally. Either way, people die.

Jesus gave some of the most stupid financial advice known to mankind. If one give ALL they have, then they are the ones who have nothing more to give. Giving also does not always come in the form of monetary possessions.

I have opened my home to many, many homeless, given them food and places to stay. I didn't do it for any other reason than pure empathy and compassion for them as human beings. I don't need a sky wizard and the threat of damnation to make me do the right thing. That makes me more moral than you any day of the week.


I'm way more moral than Jesus ever thought about being, because I would never, ever set fire to someone forever for anything they did.

The fact that I would never, ever do that and the fact that you worship a mythological being that would makes my conscience way better than yours, Vera. Way better.

Leigh said...

Vera,

For the third time I repeat my question to you:

Please answer yes or no to the following question- Is it ok for human beings to own one another as property?

ImaCamerican said...

My heart is an organ in my chest that pumps blood.

Wow. How out of touch with reality can you possibly get?


Now now, it is a true statement LOL I think you meant the spiritual heart, not the actual organ LOL

And I just want to say that the fact that stoopid women used coat hangers to do this evil act in the past does not make the modern day version righteous.

No it doesn't make it 'righteous' but having it be illegal won't work. That's my only point. Make it illegal and women will die. Jerks saying there doctors will make money, it'll just go underground. The babies go to heaven anyway right? Women have been doing this to themselves for ages. That's why it will never be illegal; they'll do it anyways and kill themselves to do it. Would you rather they get boyfriend to beat the crap out of their stomachs to get rid of the child, and what happens when it doesn't work and the child is born damaged for life by the attempt.

The only thing I can do, since I never plan to be in that position, is to hope your wrong and the baby's spirit isn't there.

I tend to have a very cold view sometimes in that our species is overpopulating the planet and soon, there will be to many people. The economy is showing it's about to break with the people we have now. Unless we find another planet to live on, we'll have to limit births anyway and this will all be settled pretty much.

Despite all that, I'm a very warm hearted, highly empathic person.

ImaCamerican said...

I don't need a sky wizard and the threat of damnation to make me do the right thing.

Oh, I like that one, sorry, but it's a lovely way to put it LOL. See I think a few Buddhists will make it into heaven. That totally discribes them.

No way God could send ALL of them to hell.

The fact that I would never, ever do that and the fact that you worship a mythological being that would makes my conscience way better than yours, Vera. Way better.

Ohhh... point there. (ya I might write that one down, just without the Vera part, yup.)

ImaCamerican said...


Is it ok for human beings to own one another as property?


no, no, Jesus change all that, that's old news, I mean testament

ImaCamerican said...

Here's a question

What really is the purpose of hell? I mean why bother with the burning and eternity. What's the point of burning someone forEVER.... It doesn't really have much of a point to me. I mean just poof them out of existence and forget it. There either has to be a fuzzy line between absolute servitude and being a decent person or no Hell at all. Why create something and then roast them? They say God doesn't want us in Hell. Then don't put people there, I mean he's gotta know about all the people there just roasting away so unless he gets some kind of pleasure from it, and he is God, why roast em? If I had to do such a thing, I couldn't live with myself, and if God does do that, then maybe I don't want to live with him either. I couldn't go to heaven knowing all those people were down there suffering. I'd rather suffer with them, then spend forever knowing they're down there. I just can't accept torture in any form. So if I do find God and I do go to heaven then God sure as hell better not let me know it's there.

Leigh said...

IC said: What really is the purpose of hell?

To give Vera something to type about. Sorry, there was no WAY I was gonna pass that one up ! ;)

Weemaryanne said...

Vera,

We're done. You're no longer even trying to respond to the points I make. You're just saying things that you know will annoy me ("read the bible" when you know I've already read it, "your parents are praying you into heaven" when you know I think that's BS, etc ad nauseam).

Goodbye.

verandoug said...

CH


The freedom to close sex shops. The freedom to arrest women in swimsuits. The freedom to make pornography illegal. The freedom to harass anyone going to a gay bar. The freedom to disrupt and harass and even threaten workers at a Planned Parenthood clinic.


Our freedoms were never meant to be freedoms to do evil. You could take your logic to its obvious conclusion and it would be about as heinous as it comes. Our freedoms are meant to be freedoms to do good and to live at liberty. The founding fathers wanted freedom to worship without persecution from the government. They wanted to be able to defend themselves. They wanted to be able to speak up when they believed something was wrong in government or society. Your style of government removes all those freedoms and then gives freedom to the reprobate to openly sin in the streets. Nobody has arrested a woman in a swimsuit where I live. These girls walk around practically nude. On the beach, they take their tops off and have done so in front of my children. I don't go to the beach anymore for that reason. The lifeguards do nothing. It is unconscionable and yet they have no shame in their actions.

We do not threaten people who do abortions but we do warn them of where they are headed. In this way, they are aware of how God sees the matter. Anyone can repent. That is what we hope for. We are not harsh in talking one on one with people. I have put up many youtubes as have our friends to demonstrate that.

It is the very fact that you want people to have the freedom to openly be immoral as to why many states enacted laws that said you had to be a Christian to be in office. Since today a Christian is anyone who says they "believe" regardless of how they live, that law is not as effective as it once was.

Vera

verandoug said...

Weemaryanne,

Don't go. I meant you no harm. I meant what I said sincerely, not to hurt you, but to show you why the dots were connected. What's wrong with parents that pray?

Vera

verandoug said...

Leigh

To give Vera something to type about. Sorry, there was no WAY I was gonna pass that one up ! ;)


Says who?

Vera

Leigh said...

Vera,

Our freedoms were never meant to be freedoms to do evil.

Evil is subjective. It wasn't evil in the bible to own slaves, but n ow it is. It wasn't considered evil a few decades ago to treat blacks as subhuman and to outlaw interracial marriage, now it is.

You may not like it, but your book is not the book by which the government decided what the laws of this country are, nor should it be.

Your style of government removes all those freedoms and then gives freedom to the reprobate to openly sin in the streets.

Sin has to do with religion and we have a separation of church and state in this country.


Nobody has arrested a woman in a swimsuit where I live. These girls walk around practically nude. On the beach, they take their tops off and have done so in front of my children. I don't go to the beach anymore for that reason. The lifeguards do nothing. It is unconscionable and yet they have no shame in their actions.

Why should women be ashamed of their breasts? There is nothing inherently sexual about breasts, and many countries have fully nude beaches where adults and children appear nude in front of each other and no harm is done. There is nothing inherently evil about nudity, Vera.

You have MADE breasts being shown in public evil to your kids because you have TOLD them it is evil. It was not inherently so, it it simply your religious frame of reference being projected on to the situation.

I feel bad for your kids. I hope they outgrow your insanity and weirdness.

We do not threaten people who do abortions but we do warn them of where they are headed. In this way, they are aware of how God sees the matter.


Yes, you do threaten people. You threaten them with being set on fire forever.

We are not harsh in talking one on one with people. I have put up many youtubes as have our friends to demonstrate that.

Vera, if I told you that I thought you deserved to have someone come up and put gasoline over your heat and light you on fire because of some behavior you did, you would bitch and moan about how persecuted you were and how I tried to 'intimidate' you. But yet, you see noting wrong with telling people that some god is going to set them on fire and you claim you say nothing 'harsh' to them. You are the very epitome of a hypocrite.


It is the very fact that you want people to have the freedom to openly be immoral as to why many states enacted laws that said you had to be a Christian to be in office. Since today a Christian is anyone who says they "believe" regardless of how they live, that law is not as effective as it once was.

That is a lie. Bigotry and fear of others unlike yourself is the reason laws like this are on the books. It doesn't matter what a persons religion is or isn't, Vera. It's their ability to do the job that matters.

Leigh said...

IC,

I just now saw something you wrote to me up above. I'll get to it at some point.

Leigh said...

Vera,

Says who?

Says me. It was joke.

Leigh said...

IC,

Here was the thing I wanted to respond to:

'sleeping around' as in multiple partners. We have diseases that can be spread, and it can also have a negative mental effect.

Diseases can also be spread through blood, feces, improper hand washing, undercooked food, ANY body fluid, rodents....you get the idea. To say that sleeping around ALWAYS has some negative effect is simply false. As long as only adults are involved and they use protection it simply isn't any of anyone else's business.

Religion can have a negative mental effect, too. So can a zillion other things in life.

Kids have sex to young and are unable to handle the emotional and physical effects of it. I'm not saying we need censorship but I think things are starting to go to far. I think of my niece and all the hormones she's got ragging (age 11) and all the videos she watches.

I wasn't talking about kids, strictly adults only, but yeah, I do think kids start having sex at too young an age. It's the parents responsibility to stop that from happening.

I remember what I was like at that age going crazy over TV stars and rock bands. Then the other day I ended up having to tell her what A.I.D.S. was, she didn't know.

Children should be educated not just about STDs but about all blood born diseases, for many reasons. Just as they need to know that if they sexually experiment with the kid down the street without protection, they can get a disease, they also need to know that if they share something that exchanges ANY body fluid with another human being they can get an infection that has the potential to kill. Sharing body fluids isn't always sexual at all. I think kids need blood born pathogens classes so that they can realize the seriousness of sharing any body fluid with another human being.

BTW she goes to Catholic school so I'm guessing they don't teach about sexually transmitted diseases and THAT scares the crap out of me.



Oh, those darn Catholics. Yeah, the Pope (or the Poop, as I call him) came out and told AIDS-ridden Africa the other week that condoms help spread AIDS. Personally, I wouldn't let my kid with a mile of a Catholic school or church. At the very least they come out with misinformation and at the very worst they might come out molested. I wonder if the Poop bothered to tell those priests molesting the kids in Catholic churches that they didn't need to bother with a condom? I was being only half sarcastic about that. I used to know a girl who had a sexually transmitted disease because she got it when she was molested by her father at 2 years old. She realized that she would have to live with it for the rest of her life.


Maybe that's why I don't mind seeing people preach in the street to much. You see everything else, people practically naked and having sex on the street. So why not some of the other side.

Here's the thing, IC. Preaching in the street isn't going to do anything about the excesses of society. Moderation and control of one's behavior comes mostly from having an internal locus of control. That means that people are guided from within, not from outside. Many things can bring about an internal locus of control in a person, but religion usually isn't one of them. With religion the locus of control is still from without because the motivating factor in regulating one's behavior is because some god said so or out of fear of punishment from said god.



Perhaps I was a tad... I mostly get upset that some people use it like birth control.

Wherever you have uneducated, lazy thinking people who take no responsibility for themselves or their life circumstances, you will have abortion used as birth control. I don't like it either. May as well slap a stamp on your head that says 'I can't make the proper choice to use birth control'.


Rape, ok I understand... but I can also UNDERSTAND people being upset even then. It's not the fault of the unborn, but I can't FORCE a woman to go through that kind of pregnancy, I'm awed by the women who actually do.

The thing is, the woman has the right to not be forced to go through with that pregnancy. I'm against 2nd and 3rd trimester abortions unless the life of the mother is in imminent danger or unless the child is so deformed as to make life for that child to be a living hell. I don't have the right to decide for women in their 1st trimester, although personally I think using as a form of birth control is excessive.

The way the human population is growing, if given enough time, the races would mix together. That is if we could do it before the sun dies or the earth dies or we nuke ourselves.



I could see that as being a really good thing. It might cut down on racial tensions and such. People would still find something to fight about though.

Is there really a law? If you’re not kidding then you've got to be kidding! I really need to brush up on my Canadian law, wonder if we got anything like that.

I don't know if anyone answered this yet or not, and I know nothing about Canadian law, but here in the States there are definitely laws that say atheists can't hold public office.

I live up here, it's nice up here, it's got FREE healthcare!

Ya know, I want that for the US, but we are so big and have such an immigration problem that I have serious doubts that it would work.

That's it for now. See ya back here, I'm sure.

verandoug said...

IC

What really is the purpose of hell? I mean why bother with the burning and eternity. What's the point of burning someone forEVER.... It doesn't really have much of a point to me. I mean just poof them out of existence and forget it. There either has to be a fuzzy line between absolute servitude and being a decent person or no Hell at all. Why create something and then roast them? They say God doesn't want us in Hell. Then don't put people there, I mean he's gotta know about all the people there just roasting away so unless he gets some kind of pleasure from it, and he is God, why roast em? If I had to do such a thing, I couldn't live with myself, and if God does do that, then maybe I don't want to live with him either. I couldn't go to heaven knowing all those people were down there suffering. I'd rather suffer with them, then spend forever knowing they're down there. I just can't accept torture in any form. So if I do find God and I do go to heaven then God sure as hell better not let me know it's there.

Point #1 Let's identify what the problem is - sin. Remember sin is where you are hurting others, being unloving, unkind, selfish, prideful, lying, loving money, cheating, hateful, murderous, self-willed, and sexually immoral. In relation to God, it is rebellion, hatred, denial, and doubt. Sin does nothing but hurt others and break God's heart.

Let's identify what sin isn't. It isn't stubbing your toe, being human with all the particulars, miscommunication, sweating, spilling the milk, or sometimes even being angry. It is right and God's design to desire your spouse sexually. Being aroused isn't sin. Sex isn't sin. Sex outside of the covenant relationship of marriage is.

I was promiscuous before I was saved. The reason I was that way was because my peers told me it was the right way to be and because I believed the guys that singled me out that they sincerely cared about me the way I cared about them. I was so stupid. When I think of how stupid I was, I am so ashamed. One in particular, crushed me more than I have ever been crushed in my life after giving me every indication that he loved me. He wanted sex, not love or a commitment. He was so cruel to me in the end and I was totally connected to him because of that union brought about by sex. I cried many tears. My heart was so broken. That was 30 some years ago, not yesterday. I have to make that clarification. Maybe I broke some hearts too. God hates that. I hate that. That guy has a part of my soul that I can never get back. He deceived me to get what he wanted and had no conscience whatsoever about it. God has healed my broken heart. And I have fought tooth and nail to make sure my own children were not indoctrinated into the modern day version of reality. My daughter has a fine marriage and arrived there a virgin. Praise God!!!

Point #2. God does not create sentient beings in His image that can be killed forever. satan cannot be murdered. We cannot be killed except from this earth. The part of us that is eternal will live on. That makes sense. Why would a God that hates murder - murder? He separates Himself from those who choose to rebel against Him.

Point #3. The punishment is just because you aren't being compared to me, but to absolute perfection. God hates sin because it is so unloving and unkind. He doesn't want that kind of stuff in His presence. Remember it is specific choices that we make that wound others not unintentional mistakes. Since you are being compared to perfection, you fall short. So God made a way for you, because He loved you even when you were sinning, to be in His presence forever. He is willing to pardon and forgive through the blood of His Son.

Point #4. If you choose separation from God here, why does being separated from Him for eternity become problematic? Sin is joining in with satan and his rebellion. So it makes sense to spend eternity with the one you choose. satan is getting hell's fire. Those who do what he does get hell fire with him.

Point #5 It is not God's will that any should perish. Jesus didn't come into the world to judge it or condemn it. He came to save it and laid down His life to do so. God has put it on my heart to take time to share with you because that is how much He cares.

Being a Christian is not a life of roses and sunshine because as a Christian, the minute I become one, I entered into a battle. However, knowing God and having wisdom are far greater than anything temporal this world has to offer. There is a song. It says:

Something beautiful,
Something good,
All my confusion
He understood
All I had to offer Him was brokenness and strife
But He made something
Beautiful of my life.

Vera

Leigh said...

Vera,

Why would a God that hates murder - murder? He separates Himself from those who choose to rebel against Him.

According to your bible, your god killed people all the time, even kids and babies.


The punishment is just because you aren't being compared to me, but to absolute perfection.

A god that kills children and babies is not absolute perfection, it's a monster.

If you choose separation from God here, why does being separated from Him for eternity become problematic? Sin is joining in with satan and his rebellion. So it makes sense to spend eternity with the one you choose.

Infinite punishment for finite choices is pure idiocy.


Is it ever ok for one human being to own another human being, Vera?

verandoug said...

Leigh

seases can also be spread through blood, feces, improper hand washing, undercooked food, ANY body fluid, rodents....you get the idea. To say that sleeping around ALWAYS has some negative effect is simply false. As long as only adults are involved and they use protection it simply isn't any of anyone else's business.

Religion can have a negative mental effect, too. So can a zillion other things in life.


This is a bad comparison. The Bible also told people to separate themselves from unclean animals. There will always be someone hurt, as I demonstrated in my post to IC where it comes to fornication

Religion is evil. It is the false belief that ritual and the Law can make man righteous. Christianity is set apart from religion because the whole concept that God laid out through Jesus is to erase and pardon sin, give man freedom from it and be reconciled to God by being born again by His Spirit becoming a new creature in Christ or walking in newness of life. The carnal mind, which is enmity with God, is no longer the driving force but instead, the Spirit of God leads the Christian and in that there is life and peace.

Vera

verandoug said...

Leigh

It's the parents responsibility to stop that from happening.

Clearly you are not a parent. Parents cannot stop young adults from sinning. Once a person reaches the age of accountability, knowing right from wrong, they are accountable to God for their actions. I could sit here all day long trying to tell you what is good and righteous just like a parent might do, but in the end, there will come a day when you are alone and have to make a choice. Most of the time, when a young adult makes such a choice, their reasoning has nothing to do with what their parents have been telling them. In that day, you can choose to listen to what your parents instructed you or not. It has absolutely nothing to do with what the parents have done or not done. No parent in the right mind would instruct a child to be promiscuous, steal, kill, etc. You choose and when you are judged, it will be your choice that you made.

Even on this earth, that holds true. The law states that a parent cannot be held responsible for the criminal actions of a child.

Vera

Leigh said...

Vera,

This is a bad comparison. The Bible also told people to separate themselves from unclean animals. There will always be someone hurt, as I demonstrated in my post to IC where it comes to fornication

No, it is not a bad comparison.

No, there is not always someone hurt. You got dicked over by some dude and you carry a grudge about sex because of it. You also make the generalization that someone will ALWAYS be hurt. All it takes to kill a generalization and to destroy your argument is ONE example to the contrary. There are a lot of people who are not hurt by sleeping around. Generalizations make you look stupid because they are so easily proven wrong.

Religion is evil. It is the false belief that ritual and the Law can make man righteous. Christianity is set apart from religion because....

LOLOL!!!! Christianity is a religion !!! This is a perfect example of another one of your logical fallacies, int his instance you are using special pleading. Logical fallacies make for failed arguments.


Clearly you are not a parent. Parents cannot stop young adults from sinning. Once a person reaches the age of accountability, knowing right from wrong, they are accountable to God for their actions. I could sit here all day long trying to tell you what is good and righteous just like a parent....

It is the parents responsibility to keep kids from doing stupid things, to not let the tv be their babysitter and to talk to them about life and the world around them. Also, I have training in early childhood education.

Saying that someone can not understand a situation or should not comment on it unless they have lived it is not a valid argument, because one does not have to direct experience to have an opinion on a situation.

I would PAY for you to take some critical thinking and logic courses at a local community college. I'm not joking, I would pay for it out of my own pocket.


Vera, is it ever ok for one human being to own another as property?

You only dodge the question because you know that slavery is immoral, period.

ImaCamerican said...

Vera:
a person reaches the age of accountability, knowing right from wrong, they are accountable to God for their actions


Then that would be about the age 25right? The part of the brain, in the frontal lobe I believe, is the place where true consequence is located. This part of the brain doesn't fully develop until late 20's. That's why kids do stupid stuff and when you ask them why, they have no idea.

So if you can't really understand consequence then do you really know right from wrong? Can God judge that as sin if the human can't truly understand the consequence?

Here's the part about hell I don't like... if you do something wrong, then the devil made you do it. That's just way too easy and pretty much diverts all blame to Satan.

Leigh:
I have to bow to your logic on a few of those points. True we should teach about all fluids... The only thing that might make sex different is the body is trying to do everything it can to make you have it :P

verandoug said...

"Because others, including physicists and cosmologists, have hypothesized that other universes may exist, this means that I, Vera, am completely justified in insisting that a place called hell does exist and has an Omnipotent Landlord. Furthermore, I am entirely within my rights to threaten people with eternal torture in this place on behalf of the Landlord, and to expect them to agree with me or at least to refrain from disagreeing out loud. If they disagree and point out that there's no evidence to support any of my claims, then they are the unreasonable ones. Q.E.D."

Do what? No. How about that there are things you don't know about and probably will never know. God is obvious. His creative works are evident. Evolution that posits that animals arose all by their little ole self have been proven false. And the record of nature is in harmony with the Bible. You are sitting on a microdot in a vast universe. Get it now?

Vera

Vera

Weemaryanne said...

What's wrong with parents that pray?

1) Nothing fails like prayer.

And 2), let me paint a hypothetical picture for you, V.

Suppose you had a brother; suppose you had mentioned him a few times; suppose you had mentioned that his name is, oh I don't know, let's say Archie.

Furthermore, let's suppose that your brother Archie is an atheist. (Or freethinker, nonbeliever, agnostic, whatever label he chooses to use for himself.)

Now, listen carefully and fire up your imagination, please.

Suppose I choose to reply to some point you've made with something like: tee-hee, Vera thinks she can convince me that her imaginary friend is real but she can't even convince her own brother, how funny.

. . . . .

Don't answer right away. Just let it kinda roll around in your mind for awhile.

Then tell me: What would be wrong with my using such a tactic?

(Apart from the fact that it completely fails to answer any point you've made. There are other reasons and I want you to find at least one of them. Good luck.)

ImaCamerican said...

um well, all animals are is a group of cells surrounded by a body to do it's whim. To eat and breathe and replicate. Those cells are chemicals that bond to each other. There has been quite a bit of testing with this hypothesis and so far tests agree that this is how the first DNA strand formed. No I might believe that God helped that along, maybe even mixed the chemicals on purpose, but I don't think he did it to create "us". I don't think we're Gods "special" creatures who can win his favor.

captain howdy said...

@Vera--


CH: The freedom to close sex shops. The freedom to arrest women in swimsuits. The freedom to make pornography illegal. The freedom to harass anyone going to a gay bar. The freedom to disrupt and harass and even threaten workers at a Planned Parenthood clinic.

You: Our freedoms were never meant to be freedoms to do evil.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You're not the morality police, Vera. Other people have rights too.




You could take your logic to its obvious conclusion and it would be about as heinous as it comes.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yeah. Sweden.



Nobody has arrested a woman in a swimsuit where I live.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Despite frantic, repeated "911" phone calls from you, no doubt. Okay, okay. Gimmee her phone number, I'll go talk to her.





These girls walk around practically nude. On the beach, they take their tops off and have done so in front of my children. I don't go to the beach anymore for that reason. The lifeguards do nothing. It is unconscionable and yet they have no shame in their actions.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You sound more and more like Emily Latella from Saturday Night Live. You know, if you feel compelled to run around on your local beach telling people to put their clothes back on and trying to call the cops on everybody--maybe, just maybe you're the one with the problem. [Oh, and for what it's worth, I notice you didn't complain about how the guys on the beach dress. Why's that, Vera? Do the morality police need a morality police?]




We do not threaten people who do abortions but we do warn them of where they are headed. In this way, they are aware of how God sees the matter. Anyone can repent. That is what we hope for.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It's one thing to have these kinds of opinions. Where I have a problem is your insistence on the right to get in other peoples' face about it. I have a problem with it because when you exercise your "right" to get in somebody else's face, it takes away their right to be left alone.

Nobody said you get to be the morality police of everybody else, Vera. Nobody voted for you to have that right. Other people have rights, too. Like the right to be left alone. And the right to disagree with you about these things. You're not the morality police over the rest of us, Vera. Despite what you read in some ancient book.

It is the very fact that you want people to have the freedom to openly be immoral as to why many states enacted laws that said you had to be a Christian to be in office.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You reserve for yourself and other True Christians (TM) the "right" to tell everybody else how to live and you openly applaud when other people's rights are taken away--like mine to run for public office. I find that...odious.




Since today a Christian is anyone who says they "believe" regardless of how they live, that law is not as effective as it once was.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'm sure you and your creepy friends in the religious right are working on that one even as we speak.

verandoug said...

CH

You're not the morality police, Vera. Other people have rights too.

If I were the morality police, I would have authority. As it is, I have no authority: Just my freedom of speech. We fight for the rights of the unborn and we speak up about immorality because we have the right to do so. This is what our Founding Fathers wanted because they were concerned about the immoral doing what they wanted to do without someone speaking up about it.

You demonstrate over and over how much you hate freedom of speech, which is why it would not be good for you to hold public office. Once atheists became the overriding authority in the ps, the first thing they did was to remove freedom of speech where it came to religion.

All I can do is to call people to repentance and hope they will heed the warning. To do that, we have to point out where it is that people are sinning. The world has become so matter-of-fact about evil. The movies and books that are written paint Christians as bigots and the evil as good upright citizens. It has caused this nation to be brainwashed into believing that good is evil and evil is good.

CH, why don't you give God one more chance. Repent and come home. It is possible for you to be set free of sin. It happened to me. I know it can happen for you.

Vera

Leigh said...

Vera,

No atheists took freedom of speech out of public schools. Either you are a complete liar, or you are completely misinformed.

You can bring a bible to school, you can pray at school, you can have a bible study, you can form groups like Christian Athlete's Association.

It is not however MANDATORY for all students, as it should have never been.

verandoug said...

Leigh

We speak up about things because we have a right to speak up about them. We are concerned not only for the eternal souls of these people but for our nation as a whole. The more reprobates there are, the more they brainwash others into becoming just like them. Sin never stays stagnate. It always grows like a cancer until you can't imagine how things got as bad as they did. Mark my words, in the future, people will try to rationalize pedophilia. They won't call it that, of course. They will dumb down the impact by giving it some easy to reconcile word like child-choice. Some child will say with enthusiasm that they wanted to have sex with an old man. It won't start with a 6 yo. It will start older and work its way down. The movie Juno, I understand, is about a young girl who falls in love with an older man. I don't know because I didn't see it but that is the kind of thing that causes us to rationalize the action.

We are not concerned for the selfish mom but for the rights of the unborn. There are hundreds of people that would love to adopt these children. I would take them on, if that's what it takes.

Pure, unadulterated capitalism preys on the weak and feeds off the misfortune of others.

This may be true, but socialism isn't the answer. It doesn't allow for people to succeed. No matter how hard you work, you never get ahead because the harder you work, the more your money goes to taxes. You could make $100,000 or $200,000. It doesn't matter because the minute you hit the next tax bracket, you pay taxes to where you are earning about the same thing. This causes people to do more to keep their money so that others can't have it and ultimately, it is the ones it would trickle down to that are hurt.

And what is it with you Christians thinking that saying someone was a former atheist but is not a brainwashed religious nut gives them any validity? Richard Dawkins could wake up tomorrow and declare that he had become just as big a self righteous xian as you are and that wouldn't change my mind. Without valid, falsifiable data as to why xianity has validity, it is just more meaningless mythology.

OK. I can receive that. Let's talk about some things that prove that the Bible is true and Christianity is real and that God is real. Are you open to discussing those things?

I verify the truth of what I believe based on my ethics and morals,

Yes, but how do you know any of that is real? You have already decided that homosex and abortion are not moral issues. What's to say that your moral stand on giving to the poor is any more right or wrong than abortion? If I walk past the starving poor man or child with my BK Whopper and do nothing even though I have plenty of money to do something, is that morally wrong? How do you know? Why is my decision immoral and who told you so? Who says?

Wrong. Slavery was ok in the bible, now it isn't.

Slavery was a way of life for most civilizations up until the advent of modern technology. But don't pat yourself on the back too long. There are folks in China that live on about $25/month (if that), live in a small apartment with many people and eat a lot of rice so that you can buy that shirt you're wearing.

No, you don't. You do it because it makes you feel like you are better than others, and you are too weak to handle life without imaginary friends.

On the contrary, I consider others better. I have thought long and hard about those questions. One of the reasons I give so much on this list and Ray's is because I want to give away what I have instead of selling it. I could write a book and make money. I have been sharing with people for 15 years online and atheists for the last 2-3.

Once I gave into sin in certain areas, I became weak in that area. I could stop doing what I was doing by all appearances but still had struggles. It wasn't until I determined that Jesus would be Lord of my life and I repented, that I was directed in the right direction and was freed from sin.

He loves people so much he wants to burn them forever? Rest assured that if your god was real, I would tell him exactly what part of my anatomy he could rest his lips.

You can tell Him that as you're going over the edge. It is that very attitude as to why He wouldn't spend eternity with you and declares that you can spend eternity with the devil. But that doesn't mean you can't repent and get right with Him. He is willing to forgive because that is the kind of God He is.

There is a reason they call that crap site you love so much Reasons to believe and not "Verifiable, falsifiable, evidence to believe".

Here's the thing, Leigh that seems to be slipping your grasp. We have scientific things that we are looking at from the past. We look to the cosmos and to the fossil record. Even though things may appear on the surface to have come about naturally, when one examines them closely, one has to admit that they are so fine tuned as to point to God. One such example is the creation of the moon. The odds of a collision making life habitable here are out in the stratosphere. The fossil record doesn't show gradualism as evolutionists insist but bursts of creation where animals are created whole and designed for the environment. You will often hear scientists use the word "design" when speaking of animals and their body parts because it is so obvious that these things are designed.

Our bodies are so remarkable. I mean to study the human body, one has to see that there are so many system parameters in place to keep us running healthy and whole until the idea of this emerging by itself, is ludicrous.


Another lie. How much freedom was there during the Crusades, Vera?


The Crusades occurred at an unusual time when men could not read and the church was more political than spiritual. In many ways the beginning mirrored 9-11. The Muslims set out to make the world become Muslim through violence and terror. They were headed toward Constantinople where the Eastern Orthodox church lies in a bottleneck. The bishop there, who was not friendly with the Roman Catholic Church, sent a letter to Pope Urban asking for assistance. According to secular historians, this move was unheralded because of the riff between them. Pope Urban responded by organizing an army of Christians making it a war of religion and telling these poor uninformed folks that they would secure their salvation if they went to defend the church there. So they did. If they started out on the wrong track, does it surprise you that they ended up in the ditch? Also, according to secualar historians, only a handful of people wrote about what happened during the Crusades all of which are obviously writing from a particular bias and point of view. We look at it as though it was a thorough account, but just like other incidences such as the recent war in Iraq, it would be like people recording the horrific things that happened in Guantánamo Bay as though this was something that happened every day. It didn't and they know that. Reporters write from a bias for a purpose and the sooner you discern that in your reading, the sooner you will see life properly. Do I have a bias? Absolutely. To see you saved.

What do you think of t-rex? Is that an evil wicked animal for being terrifying and eating the way it does?

The Bible speaks clearly against the forced servitude that the nations around Israel were practicing especially where it came to other Israelites. Remember, Israel was in slavery too. There is still slavery today in Asia and the Middle East. I have seen footage of families selling their children for needed items. The word "menstealer" in 1 Timothy 1:10 is speaking of people that steal other people to force them to become slaves. The Bible condemns this. But in the days gone by, slavery was a normal part of life. It was how the rich got their work done so that they could be rich. I'm not saying it was right. I like this day much better even though we still have slavery.

Please don't forget that it was Christians that spearheaded the movement to abolish slavery, not atheists.

Vera

Leigh said...

Vera,

We speak up about things because we have a right to speak up about them. We are concerned not only for the eternal souls of these people but for our nation as a whole. The more reprobates there are, the more they brainwash others into becoming just like them. Sin never stays stagnate. It always grows like a cancer until you can't imagine how things got as bad as they did. Mark my words, in the future, people will try to rationalize pedophilia. They won't call it that, of course. They will dumb down the impact by giving it some easy to reconcile word like child-choice. Some child will say with enthusiasm that they wanted to have sex with an old man. It won't start with a 6 yo. It will start older and work its way down. The movie Juno, I understand, is about a young girl who falls in love with an older man. I don't know because I didn't see it but that is the kind of thing that causes us to rationalize the action.

We are not concerned for the selfish mom but for the rights of the unborn. There are hundreds of people that would love to adopt these children. I would take them on, if that's what it takes.


Yet another rehashing of the same tripe you've said before, but this time you present a new logical fallacy, that of the slippery slope. You did this in your pedo argument. Just more junk from you with no evidence to back it up.

This may be true, but socialism isn't the answer. It doesn't allow for people to succeed. No matter how hard you work, you never get ahead because the harder you work, the more your money goes to taxes. You could make $100,000 or $200,000. It doesn't matter because the minute you hit the next tax bracket, you pay taxes to where you are earning about the same thing. This causes people to do more to keep their money so that others can't have it and ultimately, it is the ones it would trickle down to that are hurt.

Please tell this to the people living in places like Sweden where they have a mix of capitalism and socialism. It's called a social democracy and you couldn't be more wrong about anything you have said here is you had actually tried.

OK. I can receive that. Let's talk about some things that prove that the Bible is true and Christianity is real and that God is real. Are you open to discussing those things?


Is this some kind of freaking joke? How many people here,myself included, have asked you to back up your claims about the bible and science and you NEVER do. YOU are the one that had never been open to proving your claims.


Yes, but how do you know any of that is real? You have already decided that homosex and abortion are not moral issues. What's to say that your moral stand on giving to the poor is any more right or wrong than abortion? If I walk past the starving poor man or child with my BK Whopper and do nothing even though I have plenty of money to do something, is that morally wrong? How do you know? Why is my decision immoral and who told you so? Who says?

I know my ethics and morals are as correct as they can be the same way any of us know anything. I have a functioning conscience, I think of the outcome of my actions and how that outcome impacts others and I constantly reevaluate my ethics to see if they line up with what is in the best interest of everyone involved in any given situation. I learn from those around me, I use my brain and critical thinking skills and logic above emotion. If you think about it, this answer actually answers everything you just asked. I don't expect you'll think that far.

Slavery was a way of life for most civilizations up until the advent of modern technology. But don't pat yourself on the back too long. There are folks in China that live on about $25/month (if that), live in a small apartment with many people and eat a lot of rice so that you can buy that shirt you're wearing.


That didn't address the issue. You never do, so why start now? I'm well aware of conditions in China and all over the world. My shirt was not made in China. I actually go out of my way to avoid wearing clothes made by sweatshop slave labor.

On the contrary, I consider others better. I have thought long and hard about those questions. One of the reasons I give so much on this list and Ray's is because I want to give away what I have instead of selling it. I could write a book and make money. I have been sharing with people for 15 years online and atheists for the last 2-3.

What's stopping you from giving up everything you have? It would be an idiotic thing to do, but that hasn't stopped you yet.

Go right now and give every single thing you own to the homeless, and be sure to clean out your bank accounts, too. You'll be broke and unable to help yourself and you'll have defeated your purpose.

You can tell Him that as you're going over the edge. It is that very attitude as to why He wouldn't spend eternity with you and declares that you can spend eternity with the devil. But that doesn't mean you can't repent and get right with Him. He is willing to forgive because that is the kind of God He is.

More claims for which you have no evidence. Nothing to see there.

Here's the thing, Leigh that seems to be slipping your grasp. We have scientific things that we are looking at from the past. We look to the cosmos and to the fossil record. Even though things may appear on the surface to have come about naturally, when one examines them closely, one has to admit that they are so fine tuned as to point to God. One such example is the creation of the moon. The odds of a collision making life habitable here are out in the stratosphere. The fossil record doesn't show gradualism as evolutionists insist but bursts of creation where animals are created whole and designed for the environment. You will often hear scientists use the word "design" when speaking of animals and their body parts because it is so obvious that these things are designed.

Our bodies are so remarkable. I mean to study the human body, one has to see that there are so many system parameters in place to keep us running healthy and whole until the idea of this emerging by itself, is ludicrous.


Here's the thing that is slipping your grasp, Vera. You have no peer reviewed documentation for any of the claims you have made above. When you do, be sure to present it.

The Crusades occurred at an unusual time when men could not read and the church was more political than spiritual. In many ways the beginning mirrored 9-11....blah blah blah...


Instead of addressing the question, you try to give a history lesson on the Crusades. Did anyone ever teach you how to actually answer a question ?

What do you think of t-rex? Is that an evil wicked animal for being terrifying and eating the way it does?

WT????? What does this question have to do with anything???? Are you on drugs?


The Bible speaks clearly against the forced servitude that the nations around Israel were practicing especially where it came to other Israelites. Remember, Israel was in slavery too.

there is absolutely NO archaeological evidence that any Jews ever occupied Egypt. None.



Please don't forget that it was Christians that spearheaded the movement to abolish slavery, not atheists.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! You forget it was Christians who brought slaves to the US in the first place. How benevolent of them to try to abolish what they started!

You also forget that slave owners used the bible to condone the owning of slaves !

Thanks for the laughs, Vera. You're always good for a few.

Now if you ever want to get around to backing up any of your claims with actual evidence I'm sure no one would mind...but I'm sure no one is holding their breath, either.

ImtheRabbit said...

This is what our Founding Fathers wanted because they were concerned about the immoral doing what they wanted to do without someone speaking up about it.

The Founding Fathers wanted to make sure one religion or belief system didn't have more rights then any other and so laws would have to be built to govern the people. They wanted to stop oppression based on the choice of an individual’s faith. That's one of the reasons they escaped the rule in Europe. That one person's rule was law. In that way I guess they were trying to speak up about the immoral. The idea that one person's morals were free to disagree with another person’s morals and were not necessarily unlawful. At least that’s my opinion from what I’ve learned of them.

Let me ask this. Vera do you think laws should be changed to meet the guidelines made by the Christian God?

You demonstrate over and over how much you hate freedom of speech, which is why it would not be good for you to hold public office. Once atheists became the overriding authority in the ps, the first thing they did was to remove freedom of speech where it came to religion.

The problem with that argument is which religion? You can't teach them all. That's why it is best for such things to be taught at HOME. Would you really want your children to learn about all the religions out there? I mean there are some that seem very tempting to young minds.

The world has become so matter-of-fact about evil. The movies and books that are written paint Christians as bigots and the evil as good upright citizens. It has caused this nation to be brainwashed into believing that good is evil and evil is good.

I think good is still good, you just have a higher conception of "evil". I think abortion is evil but the woman who has an abortion can only be judged by me if I know all the facts. You simply believe the facts don't matter because it's evil and no matter what the facts are, she's still going to burn in hell. So for me the evil doesn't involve going to hell instead it involves me thinking that if she got pregnant because of her own stupidity, then she should have been the one being aborted. I still judge her quite harshly, but only if the cause was stupidity.

I have a high intolerance of stupidity. If we had a way of telling someone is just really stupid then instead of hell, I'd put them in a facility in the Antarctic

Mark my words, in the future, people will try to rationalize pedophilia.

They already do, pedophilia is considered to be a mental illness. You still go to prison for it though.

It won't start with a 6 yo. It will start older and work its way down

Vera you're a profit, They usually live on compounds and some call themselves Mormons

This may be true, but socialism isn't the answer. It doesn't allow for people to succeed

I'll never succeed because I'm Canadian, but at least I'll have healthcare.

OK. I can receive that. Let's talk about some things that prove that the Bible is true and Christianity is real and that God is real. Are you open to discussing those things?

(Insert comments where people once again start asking for this proof yet again, and yet again) I would LOVE to talk about those things, that’s why I came :)

You have already decided that homosex and abortion are not moral issues.

I think they're moral issues, but I'm selfish and they don't involve me or my lifestyle and I don't perceive that they hurt me, so I'll just let them go to hell (btw, my spell check says the word ‘homosex’ isn’t a word)

Slavery was a way of life for most civilizations up until the advent of modern technology.

Ok so my question on this is did God think it was wrong, and why didn't he do something about it sooner by teaching his people about it right away. He seemed awfully concerned about promising the success of a single bloodline.

I could write a book and make money

You make it sound so easy :P

He is willing to forgive because that is the kind of God He is.

'Kind of God' kinda makes it sound like there are different kinds of Gods, isn't there only one God? Sorry just had to say it, the devil speaks though me in the form of humor and, as we all know, mischief. Great, I’m channeling Loki.

Even though things may appear on the surface to have come about naturally, when one examines them closely, one has to admit that they are so fine tuned as to point to God

Ok but God sure had to practice to get things right, cause a lot of the creatures found in the fossil record no longer walk the earth,

Oh and the comment about the fossil record not showing gradualism might be a bit outdated. I actually took a look on how things have been going on that front from the last time I looked, which was high school. They’ve found a LOT more fossils in that time, and they even found the 'missing link'. Course that's how things go, I suddenly find out that the big bang has gone from hypothesis to theory (highest one can go in science without out becoming mathematics) and that Pluto is no longer a planet (WHEN did that happen). There is TONS of water in the solar system when I had learned it only existed on Earth. It goes on and on.

Our bodies are so remarkable. I mean to study the human body, one has to see that there are so many system parameters in place to keep us running healthy and whole until the idea of this emerging by itself, is ludicrous.

But the system parameters are always messing up. Just look at what tiny little viruses can do to it. That only brings the argument that maybe God isn't really on our side, but instead has a more 'everything out for itself' kinda belief. He's not routing for us as a winner, he's waiting to see who wins. Being faithful to God seems to have no effect on this, unless only people who sin get sick. In which case it's really easy to see who isn't sinning.

Please don't forget that it was Christians that spearheaded the movement to abolish slavery, not atheists.

Are you sure about that though? Maybe they were atheists in disguise. I thought the religious people of the time, twisted the bible to make it seem like the black people were inferior and that God told them they were cursed people meant to serve? Of course those "Christians" weren't actually Christians.

Weemaryanne said...

Fisking, merrily fisking:

"(1)How about that there are things you don't know about and probably will never know. (2)God is obvious. (3)His creative works are evident. (4)Evolution that posits that animals arose all by their little ole self have been proven false. (5)And the record of nature is in harmony with the Bible. (6)You are sitting on a microdot in a vast universe."

(1) I've never claimed anything different. So there.

(2) No it isn't.

(3) See (2) above.

(4) PROVEN FALSE BY WHOM? WHEN? WHERE'S IT PUBLISHED? THIS IS BIG NEWS, SO LET'S HAVE CITATIONS PLEASE (SHE ASKED, NOT FOR THE FIRST TIME, KNOWING IT WAS USELESS BECAUSE VERA TALKS BIG BUT NEVER COMES UP WITH THE EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT HER CLAIMS AND SHE THINKS THAT'S HOW TO WIN AN ARGUMENT).

(5) The Bible claims that pi = 3. That's not in harmony with nature or anything else.

(6) Yup. And so are you. The difference is: It doesn't scare one of us.

ImtheRabbit said...

Weemaryanne:

Fisking, merrily fisking


Stop showing me I need go back to school before I can understand the depth of this type of conversion.

What is Fisking?

(6) Yup. And so are you. The difference is: It doesn't scare one of us.

Ok I'm just the slow one of the group, which one is scared? Personally I'm scared shitless because something could at any moment, hit us Ok so tell me if I'm wrong, this shouldn't scare Vera? Cause it doesn't matter since she's going to heaven right?

(verification word: saltuti. which I find to be a funny sounding word like a salty salute)

Weemaryanne said...

Definition of "fisking" is available here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisking

And no, neither Vera nor anyone else should be scared of the universe.

Leigh said...

Rabbit,

I just got used to calling you IC, now I have to get used to a whole new name.

If something hits us, seriously, we'll probably not know much about it. Just as well, I don't think anyone would want to try to live on what was left.


Oh, you said something the other day about Mormons and the Native American thing. I just...I can not fathom how they justify that. I mean, come on !!! That is one of the more bizarre religious beliefs I've ever heard, but then again the Mormons have quite a few beliefs that are so easily proven false that it's child's play, and yet they still believe.

Just out of curiosity, remember when the Jim Jones/Jonestown thing happened? I was just old enough at the time to be cognizant of what suicide was and I watched a lot of footage of it at the time. I was about 9ish, maybe. Anyway, I watched 2 documentaries on it recently. Interesting stuff if you are interested in the psychology of cults, which I find to be a bit fascinating. I'm rambling.

Leigh said...

Fisking ! I learned a new word, too. Awesome!

ImtheRabbit said...

I've seen some shows on Jonestown. Hard to believe anyone would go through with the Kool-Aid trick. Even more so when suicide is a sin.

captain howdy said...

Why Vera--Did you delete my latest comment to you?

verandoug said...

Why Vera--Did you delete my latest comment to you?

No. I may not have gotten to it yet. There are 155 posts in my inbox from Ray's blog and this one. I had some other pressing stuff I needed to do this AM.

You guys have to realize that I home educate my children and they are the priority. :-) But when they are doing seat work, I try to get back to them. I don't delete posts. I would if they were really gross or something. I expect antagonism because I am aware that you aren't neutral in your thinking.
Vera

Leigh said...

Vera,

I expect antagonism because I am aware that you aren't neutral in your thinking.

Oh yeah, and you are, right?? LOL!

verandoug said...

By the way, Christian Arabs call god "Allah", too. Allah is an Arabic name for god.

Mohommed was a pedophile and confused man. allah is not God.

Vera

ImtheRabbit said...

Mohommed was a pedophile and confused man. allah is not God.

The translation for Allah is God though. I'm not saying the Allah the Muslims believe in is God, but Allah does translate to God.

From Wiki:Allah
Allah (, ) is the standard Arabic word for "God". The term is best known in the West for its use by Muslims as a reference to God. Arabic-speakers of all faiths, including Christians and Jews, use the word "Allah" to mean "God". The Muslim and Christian Arabs of today have no other word for 'God' than 'Allah'. In pre-Islamic Arabia, Allah was used by pagan Meccans as a reference to the creator-god, possibly the supreme deity.


So with that being true, should you not capitalize the word for God even if it's in a different language?

Leigh said...

Vera,

Do you purposefully attempt to amuse me?

Mohommed was a pedophile and confused man. allah is not God.

That has NOTHING to do with what I said.

What I said was that the word Allah , in Arabic, means 'god', and that Christians in Arab speaking countries use this word to refer to god, because that is what the word MEANS in ARABIC.

None of that is contingent upon Mohammad being a pedo or whether you think he was a god or not. It is simply the translation of the word 'Allah'.

verandoug said...

Leigh

Also, here's some thoughts on the bible and abortion:

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about/abortion.html


Let me ask you a question. What is your point with this web site? Is it that you think there is some sort of discrepancy between the God you understood to be as God and this God that you see in these passages? Actually, the best commentary on the Bible is the Bible. If you want to know God's heart on a particular topic, you have to take all the passages related to that topic IN CONTEXT to see what it has to say.

Vera

Weemaryanne said...

Vera,

If "the best commentary on the Bible is the Bible," then -- and please note I'm following your logic here -- then the best commentary on The Origin of Species would be . . .

Taaah-daaaah! -- The Origin of Species!!!!.

verandoug said...

IC

God did it’ you still have to keep asking ‘how’ he did it and possibly ‘why’ he did it. You can’t expect to the answer to end in ‘God did it’. If no one ever did that, we’d still be in the dark ages. If we had truly believed that God created the universe, would we have ever asked how? No, because we would have taken the bible as truth and lived as it told us to live. So you can’t believe what’s in the Bible because everything we have learned by questioning it ends up disproving it. So if parts of it are untrue and proved to be so, how can we follow the book as being true? We end up believing parts of the book, and different people believe different parts. This ends up being a platform for arguing which parts are true and which are not. There is no way to know for sure, which makes it a bad book to base a belief on. This is why my questioning of God stems from the bible. I just can't seem to believe the bible is the 'Word' of God, instead I can only believe it is part of the first questions we had about our existence and ideas on how these questions could be answered. Humans were not satisfied with these answers and set about to find new ones. That was the birth of science. So basically we can thank the bible for bringing about scientific discovery.

You said it yourself that there were genuine Christians that were killed by these folks in Salem. However, the Bible clearly states not to try to judge the wheat from the tares but to leave that to God for the end. So, in essence, this particular spiritual truth of killing people whom one believes to be a weed was in error because the whole counsel of God wasn't adhered to.

Take Martin Luther's little book against Jews. I am a completed Jew for the record. Anyway, if you compare Luther's spiritual truth to the book of Romans, there is no way you can come out with this diabolical point of view that lead to the Holocaust. OTOH, what satan meant for bad, God meant for good and the Holocaust lead to the regain of Israel for the Jews. So in essence, satan played right into God's hand. Plus, Luther's Reformation moved the church away from the religiosity of the past. The church had to separate from the Catholics who refused to admit they were in error (still do) but it took many years for the truth to begin to unfold because man held to many unscriptural doctrines. I know that it would be heinous for man to organize WW2. But God allowed to chain reaction and it fulfilled prophecy as a result. The Bible is the sole source of spiritual truth. In a similar fashion to the study of nature, if we come up with a spiritual hypothesis, we need to test that hypothesis against the Word of God. Does our hypothesis fit all the parameters mentioned in Scripture? If not, can we come to a greater understanding of the truth?

Just taking Luther's proposal that Jews are hated of God - what does Romans have to say about that? What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. Not to mention that Jesus calls Himself the Lion of the Tribe of Judah in the last book of the Bible, Revelations. So by coming against Jews, Luther was coming against Jesus.

Now where it comes to physical truth, the purpose for the mention of physical truths in the Bible is to show us that this is the God who made the heavens and the earth. When man discovers the truth of the cosmos, it will match the Words of Scripture. Man is supposed to test the natural world not use the Bible to dictate the natural world as many suppose. The truth is that the Bible fits what we know in the natural world only man misunderstood what God was communicating to him. That isn't so hard to understand because we are looking at this world from a very finite point of view. So it was easy for man to misunderstand, for example, the Scripture in Psalm 19 that said that the sun had a circuit around the heavens. Man thought that meant the earth. Unfortunately, man got it wrong. The circuit is around the Milky Way or literally the heavens. It seems so obvious now but then it wasn't as obvious.

I will give you another. Genesis 1 starts by stating that God created the heavens and the earth. Then it describes the initial conditions here which are exactly what scientists have uncovered. It was a water world, dark because of the primordial gases and void of life. The first thing that God says that He does is "let there be light." That has to be one of the most misunderstood passages of Scriptures. What is the result of these actions? Day and night. From the perspective I was always taught, I couldn't figure out how day and night had anything to do with the rest of the universe. Well, the truth is that our planet was hit with something large that created the moon. Ah ha. And this caused the primordial gases to dissipate so that light could now penetrate. It wasn't a perfect penetration but light was here and so was day and night. So yes, now we know how He did it because when we tested our world, which 1 Thess 5:21 commands (test all things, hold fast to that which is good) we found that now we can understand this passage - FINALLY!

The battle is heated up more than ever today. But God is pouring out truth like never before too. This computer age has given us such an advantage over those who came before us not only in the natural world but the spiritual one as well. We can study the Bible in a microsecond where the people of the past had to write things down and hope they remembered where they wrote them. Nowadays, with a click, I can pull up every Scripture on any topic instantly without the tedious job of handwriting them. This gives me the ability to study passages of Scripture and test spiritual hypothesis quickly every single day. If I don't understand a word, click, I know the definition now. There is a web site on line that is free of charge where you can read the Bible and then click on a button to see instantly the Greek or Hebrew definition of the word. www.blueletterbible.org So if I have a superior understanding to Martin Luther, it is only because he didn't have the same advantage.

Vera

verandoug said...

You can't call it 'freewill' if the penalty for not believing is torture. Which is exactly what the Bible teaches.


The choice is God or sin. Belief is a word that is often misunderstood. If you believe something, you are going to act on it. It will form your decisions. So it isn't the same as say believing that a book is sitting on my desk or that if I eat veggies, I will not get sick. Belief in Jesus means believing in His Word because He is the Word. It is more than just an intellectual belief that a person named Jesus lived and died for sin. Lots of people believe that and their lives demonstrate that they don't believe that Jesus died for their sins or they wouldn't keep on sinning. They deny God's power to do what needs to be done.

As a child, parents take that childlike faith and ruin it was stories of santa clause. The child doesn't know that this isn't real but their belief causes them to form actions like putting out a stocking or a plate of milk and cookies. Our beliefs in the unknown must translate into actions. What a travesty to tear down that faith in a child because we feel so stupid when we grow up for having believed. That's why I never did that with my six children.

Believing in faith in God causes me to believe in His Word. The two are inseparable. The difference between the manmade story of santa and the story of God Almighty is that there are hundreds of thousands of proofs that are revealed to me daily where God will predict that if this happens, this is the result. Hands down, it is 100% correct. Those things deepen my belief.

What happens when something you believe doesn't match the Words of the Bible? I self correct. :-) Sound familiar?

Vera

verandoug said...

IC

The development of a baby in the womb is based on replication. DNA controls such replication and has evolved over thousands of years, gathering different genes that had advantages over other genes and there for successfully replication more often. Now you could argue that God created DNA, but ok that makes him a 'designer' but the fact that it replicates imperfectly almost constantly doesn't show any 'intelligent' designer. If you've ever seen a Siamese twin you will see evidence of failed replication. Now if during replication there is a result that is not an advantage, the gene doesn't just disappear, we still carry many genes in our DNA that are no longer used but at times can be 'accidently' turned on as with Hypertrichosis or human werewolf syndrome. So if God is the designer why do we still have those genes in our DNA?

You may know when conception begins and why but as you start to learn how it happens; you see the design of these events is flawed and imperfect. In fact you begin to see that all the life around us exists BECAUSE that design is imperfect


There is some evolutionary processes in place in nature that are remarkable. However, I must disagree with you on mutations creating good. As you pointed out, most mutations do not produce a good outcome. OTOH, most children are not born deformed. Even when we have these things happen, they do not make us anything else. There is some radiation here that can account for these mutations. In addition, the health of the mother plays a huge role in deformations and congenital anomalies. These events seem to correlate with God saying that He would not allow man to live past 120 years. It is the result of a supernovae as I recall. I forget all the particulars but it was a good point. If you want, I could dig up that information.

Take the dog for example. It can naturally produce anything from a tea cup poodle to a Great Dane. I look at that as a form of evolution. The butterfly's metamorphosis is an evolution as well according to the second definition.

What science does is to take these evolutionary changes and impose them on the data where it doesn't fit. These same mechanisms cannot account for the biodiversity we see. The fossil record doesn't show this type of gradualism but bursts of creation just as the Bible says. Psalm 104:29-31 (another piece of the puzzle on creation) speaks of these times where God will allow the animals to die and then replenish the earth and that is exactly what we see in the fossil record. There is no mechanism that we know of that is naturally occurring that can account for these species coming on the scene complete, whole and perfectly adapted and designed for their environment especially the first complex microbes.

Vera

verandoug said...

IC

The development of a baby in the womb is based on replication. DNA controls such replication and has evolved over thousands of years, gathering different genes that had advantages over other genes and there for successfully replication more often. Now you could argue that God created DNA, but ok that makes him a 'designer' but the fact that it replicates imperfectly almost constantly doesn't show any 'intelligent' designer. If you've ever seen a Siamese twin you will see evidence of failed replication. Now if during replication there is a result that is not an advantage, the gene doesn't just disappear, we still carry many genes in our DNA that are no longer used but at times can be 'accidently' turned on as with Hypertrichosis or human werewolf syndrome. So if God is the designer why do we still have those genes in our DNA?

You may know when conception begins and why but as you start to learn how it happens; you see the design of these events is flawed and imperfect. In fact you begin to see that all the life around us exists BECAUSE that design is imperfect


There is some evolutionary processes in place in nature that are remarkable. However, I must disagree with you on mutations creating good. As you pointed out, most mutations do not produce a good outcome. OTOH, most children are not born deformed. Even when we have these things happen, they do not make us anything else. There is some radiation here that can account for these mutations. In addition, the health of the mother plays a huge role in deformations and congenital anomalies. These events seem to correlate with God saying that He would not allow man to live past 120 years. It is the result of a supernovae as I recall. I forget all the particulars but it was a good point. If you want, I could dig up that information.

Take the dog for example. It can naturally produce anything from a tea cup poodle to a Great Dane. I look at that as a form of evolution. The butterfly's metamorphosis is an evolution as well according to the second definition.

What science does is to take these evolutionary changes and impose them on the data where it doesn't fit. These same mechanisms cannot account for the biodiversity we see. The fossil record doesn't show this type of gradualism but bursts of creation just as the Bible says. Psalm 104:29-31 (another piece of the puzzle on creation) speaks of these times where God will allow the animals to die and then replenish the earth and that is exactly what we see in the fossil record. There is no mechanism that we know of that is naturally occurring that can account for these species coming on the scene complete, whole and perfectly adapted and designed for their environment especially the first complex microbes.

Vera

verandoug said...

I happen to be a mass of cells that evolved so sucsessfully it produced.. ME :)

Amen.

There is no way to verify your opinions or judgments on any topic you have given your opinion on. It is all an illusion.

See that statement applies to both of you. Vera you can't verify anything you believe or judge to be true either making it just as likely to be an illusion.


On the contrary, the proof is in my personal life and knowing God. I know His voice and the voice of a stranger I do not listen to. Does this mean I know everything? hardy hardy. No.

Vera

verandoug said...

IC

The reason we share hell's fire with you is to give you all the facts so that you will have a full understanding of your choices.

Yes but you do so with no proof that Hell's fire is even one of the choices.

sorry I'm bouncing all over here...


The proof was proved to me many years ago. Everything God has ever told me is true. So there is no reason for me to question this one. How it works, I have no clue? The address? I have no clue? We had this huge discussion over hell on Ray's list once about things like will Anne Frank go to hell? I don't know. I think Anne is responsible for the Light she has. That is all. That judgment is not for me to make. But that God would want all to come to salvation and a knowledge of the truth. There are levels in heaven. I would rather be a doorkeeper.

Vera

verandoug said...

What he should have added was, don't follow me blindly or you won't learn anything.

He did say that through Paul. Paul commended the Bereans for searching out the Scriptures to see if the things he was teaching were so. It also says that a workman should study to show himself approved of God. That takes work.

Step through the door of faith and you will have all the evidence you have ever desired. I do.

Even with faith I still have no evidence.


You have two evidences of God. One is your conscience and the other is creation. Romans 1:20 says that these are what make man without excuse. The fact that there is a created world is proof of God and the fact that you know right from wrong is the second. In that way, God manifests Himself to every man.

Should I stop looking for such evidence?

A real Christian has reasons for the hope that is within him and is ready to give an answer for that hope when asked.

The quest to continue to find that evidence is what has brought about science and will hopefully continue for the sake of our species. If we want human life to continue we must admit that the lifespan of our earth is not infinite. We need to continue to search for answers to that problem.

That is probably true. I am not called to that venture, but some folks are. The only real solution would be a solar system like our own. The only problem with that is that there are about 200 parameters in place here that make life possible. You need tectonic plates, a moon. The Bible says that this place will wear out like a garment. Then God will create a new heavens and a new earth. The physical characteristics of this new heaven and earth are different from our own.

If we give in to our faith we have no reason to fear such an event because everyone would be judged and go to their respective destinations. Heaven or Hell.

I don't fear those things but it shouldn't make me irresponsible with this planet.

If you truly believe then you should have no fear of nuclear war or any other such event. Which means people with true faith, and perhaps false unquestioning faith, could destroy humanity without guilt of killing the innocent, expecting those to continue to exist in either heaven or hell.

That would be wrong because it would be murder. However, to kill for defense is acceptable to God such as a police officer. Romans 13 states that these men and women are a terror to evil and the bear not the sword in vain. I think of the military, when it is functioning properly, the same way. Until men's hearts change, there will always be someone that will corrupt that power.

Such people might even welcome the end of the world as it being part of Gods plain and therefore have no drive to intervene on such an event.

That would not go along with what the Bible teaches. Paul said that he tried to escape capture and torture whenever he could.

True faith may take away all fear and fear is a big part of life attempting to stay living. A fear of death is actually a blessing because it causes us to strive to continue life. Hence the field of medicine.

I hate to get off on a tangent here but medicine can go way overboard in their attempts to keep people alive. The best we can, we should use discernment when making medical decisions. Actually, I have a secular nursing textbook that I was reading and the first chapter was on Florence Nightingale who apparently (according to the book) got a word from God to improve the care of the sick. She started the whole concept of the nursing process and her work did improve the outcome by 60%.

If the existence of the afterlife is so much better then the existence we have not then what's to keep people from welcoming it?

I do welcome but I don't help it along. Does that make sense? :-)

Blessings,
Vera

Weemaryanne said...

Fisking, merrily fisking:

The proof was proved to me many years ago.

Er, you needed proof? Faith wasn't enough?

-- Oh, yeah, right. Faith actually isn't enough for Vera. That's why you're so fond of Hugh Ross and Ron Wyatt's work; it gives you the hope that you're neither stupid nor crazy to believe all this stuff, " 'cause look here, these real smart fellers believe it too, and they're real smart fellers, so they must be right, so I can't be wrong!"

And furthermore, what was this proof, exactly?

AANNDD further furthermore, why should YOUR experience mean anything to ME?


Everything God has ever told me . . .

Who?


. . . is true. So there is no reason for me to question this one.

And you know this -- how? (Bzzzt! no using the bible. You know that doesn't work.)


How it works, I have no clue? The address? I have no clue?

We noticed. The repeated failure to come up with EVIDENCE was the first, second, one-hundredth and one-millionth clue.


We had this huge discussion over hell on Ray's list once about things like will Anne Frank go to hell? I don't know. I think Anne is responsible for the Light she has. That is all. That judgment is not for me to make.

Okay, you're not qualified to judge someone who's been dead for sixty years. But you're eminently qualified to judge millions of people now living whom you've never met or can barely claim acquaintance with. Like me.


But that God . . .

Again I ask: Who he? -- Oh, that's right, you've misplaced his address. Well, search again and search harder, Vera, this is important fer cryen out loud!


. . . would want all to come to salvation and a knowledge of the truth.

V darlin', I don't make any claims about what my nearest and dearest would want without actually ASKING them "what do you want" and waiting for them to actually ANSWER me. So don't make claims about what your imaginary friend wants.

(BTW, it's interesting that you use the words "what God would want" rather than "what God wants." This sounds, hmm, almost as if you're not convinced yourself, not 100% certain, but you have to make claims because that's what the evangelization business is, so you're just makin' it up as you go. -- Your slip is showing again, Vera.)


There are levels in heaven. I would rather be a doorkeeper.

For the pay or for the shiny uniform? (Just had to ask.)

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