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Friday, March 6, 2009

The Problems with the Doctrine of "Sin Nature."



Many centuries ago, a man named Augustine coined a phrase called "sin nature," which is not one place in Scripture. Sin nature was two words that were used to explain why man sins and falls short of the glory of God. The ideology was based on two passages of Scripture. One is Romans 5 and the other is Psalm 51 and of course, the passages that clearly state that all sin and fall short of the glory of God. The premise was that because Adam sinned, we inherited a sin nature so that we were inclined to sin. Many have explained that this was a dead spirit or an evil wicked heart inherited in Adam.

The problem is that this teaching gave man an excuse. This did not take into account the rest of the book of Romans because Romans 1 is also clear that man has no excuse. Romans 2:14 also would suggest that there are some that walk in the Law without having the Law with a clear conscience.

When we began to preach out on the streets, we began to note a phenomenon where many so called Christians were deceived into believing that they couldn't help but sin in flagrantly vile ways but thank God Jesus died for their sins. I have placed one of our youtubes in front of the abortion clinic in New Orleans to demonstrate this problem. This woman, like thousands of others, thinks she can ask for forgiveness at the end of the day. Homosexuals, in particular, constantly proclaim that they were "born sinners." This caused us to begin investigating these teachings.

People sincerely believe that God understands our plight and will excuse them on the day of judgment because they humbly admit how weak they are in their sin nature even after being saved. I know God fearing Christians that honestly believe that admitting that they sin every day is the right way to be as it is a profession of humility. That right there should throw up red flags. (1 John 3) Unfortunately, people like to sin because there is pleasure in it for a season. They don't like the message that says to "Go and sin no more". They want to believe that God's love, in part, has a sympathy toward sin. Nothing could be further from truth.

Let's think about this logically. We are created beings. Right? This means sin nature is a part of our created being especially since we can't help it according to this doctrine. God knows there is the possibility of sin when he created us. God isn't stupid. He knew very well that Adam and Eve could disobey the one law He had going and eat from this very beautiful advantageous tree. And please recall that they supposedly chose to disobey this law without a sin nature.

God recognizes that He is slain from the foundation of the world. This is important because God knows how much it will cost Him if Adam and Eve do disobey. So God in His infinite wisdom builds within His creation a computer software virus called "sin nature." Now whenever this first created man rebels, the switch on the sin nature program goes into effect so that now all the rest of his offspring will be born with a sin nature doing the heinous things that God hates per God's design so that He must cast everyone into hell's fire and hate them. I hope this is sinking in because this was what got to me to help me see past all the teaching I had ever gotten on this topic. I fought this tooth and nail because I was so conditioned to believe that we are born sinning.

I began to ask myself, "Are there examples in Scripture of people that lived righteously before Jesus died on the cross?" (Romans 2:14) Many folks were declared by God as righteous before Jesus died on the cross. Zacharias and Elizabeth, for example in Luke 1:6. Daniel is another. Abel is another. Even Paul said that he was blameless under the Law. Phil 3. But then in Romans 7, he shares how impossible it was to keep the Law in his heart. The more Law he understood, the more that sin raged in him to where he was brought into captivity to it. He cries out to be delivered from this situation and then declares that he can, thank God, through Jesus Christ.

If you read Romans 5 closely, you will see that sin didn't pass to all men but death did because all had sinned. It is the body of this death that is the problem. We inherited death, not sin. Our problem is referred to as the "flesh." It is apparently the selfish self gratification of this flesh that we desire and are deceived into believing we have a right to.

As to Psalm 51, instead of David declaring that he was born sinning, could he be sharing some infidelity in his conception? Sex is not sin. So he can't be saying that the act of sex conceived him in sin. Is he suggesting that he was conceived in sin because he is human? Was Jesus then "conceived in sin" because he was also created exactly like we are with the "seed of David?" (Hebrews 2:16-18, 2 Timothy 2:8) The parameters had to be the same for the victory to be a real victory over this flesh. Jesus denied His flesh 100% of the time and chose to walk obedient to the Spirit. He gave up heaven to accomplish this.

In terms of child rearing, I had been told through child experts that children have a sin nature and that they should be spanked young to whack that sin nature out of them. Although I didn't follow that admonition, I was conditioned to expect sin from my children so that even when I could clearly see that there was the possibility of them being innocent, I expected the opposite. Without even realizing it, I was encouraging my children to sin. Then I noted that Corrie ten Boom's parents didn't spank their children. They are the most successful family that I can think of.

Fast forward to the 21st century, we are in a heap big trouble with a very Holy God. We have people sinning left and right because they falsely believe that they can't help it. They are supposed Christians on a fast track to hell. Can you imagine living your whole life as a worker of iniquity thinking all that sin is covered because you asked for forgiveness at the end of the day? Matthew 7:21 Actually, that would follow logically because you would have to accuse God for giving you a sin nature should the subject come up during this confrontation. The way I understood it was that I would be different than the heathen because I would plead the blood of Jesus. Unfortunately, that is not what the disciples were teaching. Colossians 1 speaks of being presented "unblameable and unreproveable." 1 John 3 clearly states that the way to tell the difference between someone who is saved and one who is not is whether they are sinning or not.

Some believe these sinning Christians are "false converts." I believe that if Adam could know God and sin then anyone can choose to sin and when we do, our relationship to God is severed until we repent. While we are sinning, should we die and not repent, we will not inherit the kingdom. It is a deception to think otherwise. (1 Cor. 6:9-11, Gal. 5) Paul made that distinction in 1 Cor. 5 by stating that we are not to eat with someone who calls themselves a brother and is sinning.

Some men of God proposed that sin was unacceptable to God but only in terms of repercussions here on this earth. One taught that initially your spirit gets saved but it just takes time for your soul to be saved meaning that you will continue to sin until you stop eventually. Regrettably, this still came at the problem from the foundational doctrine of sin nature. To battle sin nature, instead of seeking the power of God to be set free, (2 Timothy 3) he gave people tangible ways to stop sinning and in essence presented his own law. Those who did not uphold the "law" were shunned and ostracized. Some people, it would seem, were able to make a better show than others. Others, who were not so good at acting, did not fair as well.

Can we stop sinning? If you recognize that the problem is your flesh and a weakened spirit, you realize that there is real hope through the power of God and His divine nature imparted to us called grace. We are not born sinning but innocent and we have been given a conscience. Most children do not sin. They tell the truth. They love their mommies and daddies. Crying babies are not sinning as we have been led to believe. This is why Jesus said to become like a little child for of such is the kingdom of heaven. When we sin it is usually because we are between a rock and hard place and we CHOOSE to do the opposite of what our conscience is telling us is the right thing. We also have an adversary, the devil, who deceives us. The other reason is to give us some sort of physical pleasure. James says that we are enticed by our own lusts. Apparently, this happened to Adam and Eve as well. When we sin, the guilt is overwhelming especially as a child. I remember those things as though they happened yesterday. Once you give into sin, you become a child of wrath and are by nature then evil. It is a path of no end until it is broken by repentance and pardon through the blood of Jesus who creates a clean heart in us and then we are set free from sin by His power. It is the only way to get into heaven.

See if you understand the problem, then there is a solution to the problem and we can be set free by His power without any law. We can actually be around hard core sin and not feel the least bit enticed to do it. I have lived that.

There was so much fear built into this teaching because it is the law and with the law there must be consequences when the law is not upheld. So there was fear of reprisal and humiliation but there was also fear in being around anyone else that didn't uphold these standards. When parents would come to these folks disparagingly because of a rebellious son or daughter, these people would direct their attention to a place where they did not keep this law. For example, they might say, "Did you ever listen to rock music?" Unfortunately, in this day and time, rock music is virtually impossible to stay away from. Another question that might be asked was, "Does the mom ever feel the the husband is not living up to his spiritual responsibilities and let him know? If so, she encouraged the child to be rebellious." Thus the child's sin is now the mom's fault for not upholding the typical sinning husband. God is not going to excuse their rebellious son on the day of Judgement because the parents happened to be a particular way. That child's sin is not the fault of the parents, which explains why God does not distinguish which parents should be honored and which shouldn't.

People were encouraged to pull away completely from the world and cloister themselves for this reason and to shun any other believer that was not like they were mainly out of fear of being dragged into sin. Sin equals not keeping standards. So there was no multiplication of talents, which is a hell-bound offense. Matthew 25 Let that one sink in. Jesus said (not Vera) that if you don't multiply your talents, He's casting you into hell's fire. See, there was never a distinction made between who was literally sinning and not going to heaven anyway and someone who might not, for example, wear dresses. I don't think they even realized what they were doing at the time because I think they were genuinely trying to keep people from falling into sin because they knew sin offends God. It is only folks that have a weak faith in the power of God that need standards to keep from sinning. (Romans 14) If rock music causes you to sin, then by all means, cut it off and I as your brother or sister in Christ will uphold your conviction.

I am not suggesting that we shouldn't have standards or convictions. I know there are things that offend God and so I don't participate in them. I have a dress style that I believe is modest. But those things can't make me righteous and they won't save me. They may or may not indicate that I am holy. My holiness is dependent on what is going on on the inside which will translate in my actions. I have seen nuns that look so holy in their habits. But that dress does not make them holy. They could be practicing evil in their hearts in privacy and still be wearing this outfit.

I see that God has used many men even when they were wrong to keep people from offending Him. And even though I would argue that rock music isn't an excuse, I would agree that it can have a negative effect on one's spirit. I definitely do not like it for worship because it does not reflect the holiness of God.

Take this new movie called Fireproof. In it, the mom is writing this journal and she basically says concerning the pornography that this fellow is into that to have a fine marriage, he must give up the pornography. Do you see a problem with this advice to help this person to repent?

While it is true that he might have a restored relationship, his turnaround may or may not fix his marriage. What if the wife decided to run off with the rich doctor? Since things did not go as planned, does the husband go back to his porn addiction because the promised result didn't happen? What would stop him at that point? Let's face it. In a movie, we imagine that the wife would be remiss for rejecting Kirk Cameron. But in real life, she's not on camera and the sinning husband is Joe Nobody. What about that he is offending a Holy God and she is too and they're both going to bust hell wide open if they don't repent?

This was the kind of advice and focus that these folks promoted all the time. If you do this, God will do that. But what if our actions or repentance do not bring about the promised change especially because the promise would have to come through someone that is either sinning or somehow says yes or no to the promptings of the Holy Spirit? Where does that leave us with God? I tell you where it left me. I felt that somehow God must not have liked me as much as the other guy that got the blessing.

For the first time in my life, I feel that I am on the right track. Just by pulling that one teaching from the mix of teachings along with "once saved; always saved" and recognizing that God has done much to keep me from sinning and yet I chose to sin anyway entrapping myself in the devil's web by my own freewill choice, I know now how to help others out of their sin by grace through faith. I chose to sin. I chose to repent.

I found what I was looking for in Christ by His Spirit leading me in the way. I found genuine righteousness by grace through faith and this not of myself, it was the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast.

Vera

306 comments:

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verandoug said...

What do you mean we've "found a way around the system"? I thought we had "mastery" of the system. Why should we have to find a way around a system we control?

Found a way first then controlled.

Vera, you're trying to tell us that atheists are in control of America.

No the ps system, which has a huge effect on America in terms of influence. Atheists control our ps, which is why I don't send my children there. My children have stood heads and tails above every ps student they've come across. My son is top of his class in math as was my other. My oldest is a girl who is ok in math but not a whiz. Her gift is writing. She made the highest score on an essay that Ohio has ever had. See, I am talking 40 points or more above the rest of the class. So even academically they are above their peers. Just write a colorful children's book called I Have Two Mommies explaining to children how mean and cruel it is to stand against sin and you've got a doorway into the home. Just to clue you in, this very phenomenon happens in the church as well. If the children do it, it's cute.

I'm pointing out that to exercise all our rights we have to impersonate a Christian, which is what you accuse Obama of doing. Why would we have to try to pass ourselves off as Christians just to run for public office if we atheists really control everything like you say we do?

Because the country is still 80% (supposedly) Christian. They wouldn't vote for an outright atheist. . . yet. But it will happen if something or Someone doesn't intervene.

Just answer that question. I don't want to know what you think of Barak Obama. I don't want to know what you think of Bill Clinton, or Hillary Clinton, or Monica Lewinski, either.

Just explain why we atheists should have to pretend to be Christians just to hold state office if we really control everything like you say we do?


The control occurs within the home first to change the moral status of the nation and then moves toward the government chipping away bit by bit so that we are doped against the effect of sin in a leader. In that there is more control than if you held an office at first. Then, since "Christian" is not well defined as one full of the Spirit of God freed from sin, anyone can be a Christian. Could it get any easier for an atheist to get into public office after everyone is so dumbed down where it comes to conscience?

Vera

Weemaryanne said...

If atheists control the public schools, then how did this guy get away with BRANDING CROSSES ON HIS STUDENTS?

http://bluecollarscientist.com/2008/05/12/john-freshwater-update/

Leigh said...

Vera,

What is the point of sending anyone over to some drivel laden junk website full of scripture and TABLOID claims ?? That is EXACTLY what you sent me to. Yet, when I send you to something that dares show your magic book in a bad light, you get into a huff over it. Let me guess...people are supposed to blindly swallow your magic book and the crap that RTB puts out, but no one is supposed to dare point out the other side. And you say atheists aren't neutral???


In context or out of context,the POINT is the same here...your god killed children and infants in the bible. If it is moral for him to do so, then you can not say that is never a moral choice for a human being to do so, because you destroy your own argument by using special pleading.

Did the point sink through that time?

Kerri Love said...

Thank you Vera for your explanations :) I really like to hear your point of view. I agree with you about Santa in many ways. I don't see why we can't simply tell our children that Santa is just for fun, instead of lying to them. I've met a few people who also don't tell their children this lie. We like to say it's all for fun, but I remember how hurt I was when I found out it wasn't true. I think that even helped disconnect my faith. That and I started reading Greek and Roman myths at such a young age I thought the Bible was just more of the same.

There is no mechanism that we know of that is naturally occurring that can account for these species coming on the scene complete, whole and perfectly adapted and designed for their environment especially the first complex microbes.

I agree with this statement, however ;) I don't think the species came on the scene complete and they certainly were not adapted or designed for the environment. This is why we have extinction. If the environment changes then the adaptations that worked with the old environment suddenly don't work.

Let’s take the Polar Bear since he's a local for me. Now that the climate is changing, the white fur of the polar bear is now starting to cause it problems when before it was an advantage. This animal was 'designed' for the arctic conditions but now that conditions are changing they are at risk. I doubt your going to see the polar bear suddenly adapt, so if the conditions in the arctic keep changing then the polar bear might die off. I guess you could argue that the fact some of these bears are now breeding with their grizzly cousins, they will live on as a new species. I think they've actually given these half-breeds a separate name. Now if you look at this 'new' bear you could say it arrived 'out of nowhere' and was perfectly adapted to this new environment. It's only possible because the Grizzly and Polar bears are close cousins and can interbreed. The way to explain how different these bears are, yet can still breed, is because they evolved from the same bear and adapted to its own environment. There was never just one Grizzly and one Polar that were created specifically for their environment instead there was one group of bears that over time, adapted to the environment they lived in. They were never "complete, whole and perfectly adapted." So I can still believe in the possibility that God started the universe, but I still think that’s where his ‘design’ ended. Maybe he started it because he wanted to see what would happen but I don’t think he did anything to correct things or interfere with how things progressed. You could say he made conditions possible for life to begin, but I don’t think he actually created any of the animals that evolved.

I really enjoy these conversations because they make me really think about things. You might think I'm still going to go to hell, but I'd go there with the knowledge that I at least tried to understand it by using the brain I was given. That brain just can't choose one religion over another. Lots of people claim their religion has all the answers and is 100% and all that, I just can't say to myself 'well they should know and couldn't be lying' Humanity has taught me that people lie, that people can twist words to suit their ideas. You could say one thing proves prophecy but then another person could say you got the facts mixed up. The Bible could seem 100% but it was written and rewritten after all these things happened, it's easy to make it look like prophecy when it's already come to pass, it's easy to make the facts fit what you want them to fit. So I'm still skeptic.
This is almost the same reason for me not to believe in psychics, they have lots of tricks to make you think they can read minds and see the future.

Leigh said...

No the ps system, which has a huge effect on America in terms of influence. Atheists control our ps, which is why I don't send my children there. My children have stood heads and tails above every ps student they've come across. My son is top of his class in math as was my other. My oldest is a girl who is ok in math but not a whiz. Her gift is writing. She made the highest score on an essay that Ohio has ever had. See, I am talking 40 points or more above the rest of the class. So even academically they are above their peers. Just write a colorful children's book called I Have Two Mommies explaining to children how mean and cruel it is to stand against sin and you've got a doorway into the home. Just to clue you in, this very phenomenon happens in the church as well. If the children do it, it's cute.

And how would they do in an academic situation where they had to explain concepts like abiogenesis, evolution and speciation? Not very well, I think.

Also, I believe the book you are referring to is called Heather Has Two Mommies. It's a great book and it was in the classroom of many of the preschool children I taught. In one situation, it really helped explain to the other kids why one of our students had 2 mothers. Some of the children found it odd, but that book was an excellent teaching tool about how not every family is just like yous and how we should not discriminate against others because their families are different than ours. Do not start harping on how that book teaches a 'homosexual agenda'. It does not. It teaches exactly what I said it does.

Do you ever READ any books that counter your own arguments or do you only read things that support what you already think so that you can gluttonously feed that confirmation bias of yours?

verandoug said...

The supernatural cannot be tested by the natural. The body you obtain after death is obviously not the same as the body you have now. In the new heaven and new earth, for example, it says that there will be no seas. Does that mean that water will not be a necessity?

You have claimed that hell is a physical place of torture and that it is located in the center of the earth.

I couldn't begin to tell you how that works. I have no idea. All I know is that hell is a real place. I know God because I was reconciled to Him through repentance. There is no question in my mind that heaven and hell are real.
If you make the claim that these places are spiritual only, then you have proven yourself a lair, since you just claimed they were physical.

That's because you are trying to test them with your frail finite mind and abilities. How funny. Why don't you tell us what produced the big bang? What was before that? How did that occur? What brought it about? Please test that for us with peer reviewed scientific research that can prove your assertions.

In refrence to my stating that the heart is an organ in my chest which pumps blood you stated the following:

Wow. How out of touch with reality can you possibly get?


Please present evidence that the heart is not an organ in my chest that pumps blood. How is possible that you are a nurse and you can make the claim that the heart is not an organ in my chest that pumps blood?


Even psychology admits that there is an inner man. I know because I have been studying it in nursing and for the record, Freud copied it straight out of the Bible.

"The only time an abortion has ever been accepted BY ME(even before Roe v. Wade) is when the mother's life is in danger and even then, it was usually a family member making a very difficult choice - the mom or the baby.



The rest is murder.

That is strictly your opinion and nothing more. You have no right to impose that opinion on anyone else.


I could so see you in the 18th and 19th century arguing for slavery. "That is strictly your opinion on slavery. You have no right to impose that opinion on the abolition of slavery on anyone else."

When abortion became legal first trimester abortions became extremely safe and women stopped dying.

Yes and babies started being murdered instead by the droves. The leading cause of death in America is murder - abortion.


Both are wicked and evil. It's like saying that we should now give murderers the availability of lethal injection for those they hate since in times past they used to blow their brains out with a gun.

No, it is not like saying that. That is one of the most failed analogies you have made to date. I have no doubt that you will out do yourself in the near future.


Actually, it is exactly what you are saying. Since the mother wants to murder her child because she got caught with per proverbial pants down, now let's make the murder of the child an easy and safe thing for her.

No, one of the dumbest rationales on this planet is that a patriarchal sky wizard poofed the universe into existence

Yes, the big bang as you recall....

and chose ignorant goat herders to be the keepers of all his so called laws and that we should pay any attention to the fact that people still believe this garbage.

So how have you evolved? What? Now you buy your goat at the Piggly Wiggly and that somehow makes you superior intellectually? I have heard secular anthropologists say that the men of 10,000 years ago had the some cognizant abilities and abstract thinking that we possess today without the data base of knowledge. The remarkable thing is that they wrote those things without the means to test them and they match reality.

The difference between you and most Christians is that you take responsibility for your actions. But even still that doesn't make you good enough compared to a Holy God. Only through the blood of Jesus can you receive that pardon for sin.

Can you tell me more of your story? How and why did you walk away from the church? It might help me help you.

Vera

Kerri Love said...

I don't fear those things but it shouldn't make me irresponsible with this planet.

I like that statement, it makes sense. I guess if you just let people trash the earth, God might find that a bit wrong ;)

I hate to get off on a tangent here but medicine can go way overboard in their attempts to keep people alive.

That’s ok, I like tangents. I don’t understand what you mean by them going to far though, could you clarify? Is this in terms of people who are brain dead being kept alive by machines? Here’s a philosophical question. Do you think when a person is brain dead that they have already gone to heaven?

I do welcome but I don't help it along. Does that make sense? :-)

It does. If the bible was written by man, the one who wrote that suicide is a sin was extremely smart. I think this is what can make the twisting of the Muslim faith so dangerous, to them it’s not a sin I guess…

There are levels in heaven. I would rather be a doorkeeper.

Does that mean you want to be the person who turns some away? Would the doorkeeper be the one to judge who gets to come in? Sorry I’m just a little confused by that statement. I think I’d want to be the person as far away from the suffering in hell as I could possibly be. I say again, I can’t condone torture.

verandoug said...

Leigh

Please answer yes or no to the following question- Is it ok for human beings to own one another as property?

No. And in the same way that Christians speak out against abortion, Christians spoke out against slavery to the abolishing of it.

Unfortunately, these things become a way of life for people and are excused and rationalized as though there is no other recourse. Why do you think the South pre-Civil War wouldn't give up their slaves? Why do you think they fought a bloody war over these things, amongst other issues? It was mandated and sanctioned by most governments down through the ages. Even when there isn't slavery, there is usually servitude in some regard because the rich don't like doing their own laundry or washing their dishes. What? Do you think Angelina Jolie does her own laundry for herself and her how many children like I do? They don't pay their servants a million dollars to do the laundry. They eek out just enough money to keep the servant happy. And for the African Americans that were freed, sadly, they were not able to achieve even after the abolishing of slavery because all they knew was servile labor. They had no education. It has taken many years for the black Americans to rise up out of the slavery mindset from the South. They were free but they were still servants. I grew up in Savannah, GA. Back in 1962 when I was in 1st grade, I vividly remember that we had black and white bathrooms and black and white water fountains as our school was being integrated. I don't remember anyone's name from 1st grade except the name of the one black boy in our school - Earnest. I also remember being in a fish store with my mom and a black family walking in. I started playing with the little girl in that family and I remember my mom feeling uncomfortable. I had no idea why.

I am grateful to know God because I hate prejudice seeing things from His perspective. I hate the way the black people in my city were oppressed. There is still so much prejudice in the South. It's like they are stuck in a time warp.

Vera

verandoug said...

IC

I tend to have a very cold view sometimes in that our species is overpopulating the planet and soon, there will be to many people.

Out of the abundance of the heart.... At least you are one of the few that is getting to the bottom line of this issue. It's all about the money and the love of it. We are not overpopulating the planet - not by a long shot. How do you know if the children we kill are not the brains behind the solution to these problems for us? The more people we have, the more our society grows and thrives. More minds mean more ideas and solutions. Most people are not sucking off of society. They get out and do things even if they are doing jobs like my husband does like cutting grass and landscaping. Everyone plays a role. They have jobs that fulfill needs within our society. The population of the world could all fit in the area of Jacksonville, FL is we were all standing shoulder to shoulder; back to back. The reason it seems like we have a lot of people is because of big cities where lots of people congregate. The reason for that is because of money. The big paying jobs are usually in the big city. But there are still plenty of small towns in the world with few people. Oh, and people like living where the climate is nice. So lots of people move to Florida for that reason. But if you go on a long drive through the US, there are hundreds of thousands of miles of empty land and small towns. Why do you think these overly populated areas of the world pull such weight during elections? If you look at a map, there is more land space voting conservative in elections but states like New York and Florida have an abundance of population and hence more electoral votes. So you could photograph New York at 9AM in the morning and it would look like a zoo and then build your case for overpopulation. But then let's take our camera to Podunk USA and we would see quite a different scene.

People need to keep their pants on and stop fornicating. That is the solution to the abortion problem not killing the child. The idea that people can't control themselves is a bad character to feed. In the end, you will wish that you told people that they can control their urges and wait until they get married.

Vera

verandoug said...

IC

Oh, I like that one, sorry, but it's a lovely way to put it LOL. See I think a few Buddhists will make it into heaven. That totally discribes them.


Your own goodness though won't get you in but you are right. The church is full of hypocrites and many atheists lead more moral lives than these false converts because the false converts stupidly believe that the message is that God knew we were sinners and couldn't help but being sinners so that we can sin every day and at the end of the day be forgiven. This youtube will show you that I am sincere and that this is what we teach.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlevb0Viegw&feature=channel_page

The churches that speak this trash seems to attract these little fools by the droves. Thus they can do as they please with a free ticket into heaven now that Jesus died for their sins. They will stupidly say that the difference between an atheist and a Christian is that they are forgiven and the atheist isn't. How ignorant can they get? 1 John 3 clearly states that a Christian is manifest by the fact that he doesn't sin.

Both the atheist and the sinner are headed for hell's fire. The atheists proves that man can control himself and choose to do the right thing. Romans 2:14 speaks of this very thing.

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.


This idea of man forced to sin is ludicrous. That message is not one place in Scripture.

So what is the problem? The problem is that you fall short of God's glory. Even one offense that isn't paid in full can cause a riff between you and God. Thus you aren't reconciled to Him. It is knowing Him that gets you into heaven. Matt 7:21 The relationship can only be restored through repentance and the blood of Jesus for payment of your sins. But if you continue in sin, there remains no longer a sacrifice for sin. Hebrews 10. So this idea that we continue to willfully sin after salvation is a ridiculous notion made up by sinners who wanted a free ticket to sin. The relationship can be broken as quickly as it is restored if we sin again. We have to repent and get beyond that. Hebrews 6 moving into perfection or maturation. This doesn't mean living the perfect day or never suffering. On the contrary, all who live Godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. But we can still in the midst of that live free from sin because God won't allow us to be tempted more than we can handle but will with every temptation provide a way of escape.

Vera

verandoug said...

I'd rather suffer with them, then spend forever knowing they're down there.

Or how about working 2 - 3 hours a day trying to persuade people to the truth? My conscience will be clear in heaven because I spent every extra minute and most extra money to help people to see the truth. God has so put people on my heart that I spend that much time a day trying to share the good news with people so that they don't have to go there but that God has provided a means not to go there. He died on the cross for that very reason because He so loved the world.

Hell is separation from Him. You choose to be separated from Him here. That is what you choose for eternity. Remember salvation is knowing Him even if it is for the last few moments you spend on this earth as the thief next to Jesus did. Hell is meant for the devil and his little minions. It is not meant for you but will be the place you choose if you aren't reconciled. The whole church is so asleep and sinning and could care less about you. I had a vision once of the idea of being in hell's fire even though I had believed and I couldn't imagine. But that is what Jesus is describing in Matt 7:21. He says that these folks call Him "Lord, Lord" but they don't do His will. There is no question that they are shocked at His response to them because they falsely thought that they could sin and be saved. Those people that never do anything are in danger of hell's fire as well because they never got out and did anything to help others come to Him. Matthew 25 clearly states that if you aren't multiplying your talents or at the very least supporting those that are, you aren't getting in. God finds that attitude reprehensible in light of what's at stake. I don't want that for anyone. God will not pollute heaven with sin. Not happening. That is why there's a hell's fire. It is up to us to share the truth with the world. The fact that we are eternal cannot change.

Oh and I have spoken to Buddhists before. They are well aware that they cannot keep the standards or Law. They know they do not know God and that He is real even though Buddha didn't.

Vera

Kerri Love said...

And you know this -- how? (Bzzzt! no using the bible. You know that doesn't work.)

See this is like saying you can't talk about evolution using anything Darwin came up with ;P

Kerri Love said...

People need to keep their pants on and stop fornicating. That is the solution to the abortion problem not killing the child.

Now this is something I pretty much believe. This would be easy for me though, I don't like 'fornicating'.

In the end, you will wish that you told people that they can control their urges and wait until they get married.

Again, easy for me, I could go without till I die, I just don't like it, so it's hard for me to understand why people would want to bother. I know they do, cause they like it, but I can't relate since I don't. I think that's TMI but, oh well.

I'd still rather suffer hell then know people are suffering in hell, even if I knew they had to be there because they didn’t believe in Jesus. If I'm in heaven and I know people are suffering in hell, that would make heaven a hell for me.

Weemaryanne said...

Imtherabbit,

See this is like saying you can't talk about evolution using anything Darwin came up with ;P

Just so ya know: Biology has kinda moved on from Darwin. A century-and-a-half provides a lotta new stuff to work with. DNA (to name just one) provides excellent support for the theory of evolution.

Also just so ya know: That wasn't nearly as funny as you think.

Sorry. But not very.

captain howdy said...

@Vera--

CH: Vera, you're trying to tell us that atheists are in control of America.

You: No the ps system, which has a huge effect on America in terms of influence.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Vera, what you actually said was:

"No, the atheists have the mastery in this country, not the Christians, which is evident everywhere. I know because I get out and actually talk to people.

Vera

March 23, 2009 1:24 PM"


You're trying to tell us that atheists have control of this country, and when I called you on it, you changed your story.


You're trying to claim we atheists are in control of everything when in at least a dozen states atheists can't even run for public office. To make the claim that atheists control the nation when they can't even run for public office isn't just bull****, it's obvious bull****.

And, as I've pointed out to Ray so many times before, if you have to BS us to sell us your religion, why would I want to buy into your religion? Would you buy a car if the guy trying to sell it to you lied to you about it?


But all this is secondary anyway. The main point, Vera--the "take home message" is simply this:

You're not the morality police of everybody else, Vera. I agree that you have first amendment rights, but other people have rights too. They have the right to be left alone. Nobody has to answer to you, Vera.

You howl when somebody even suggests that maybe you need to display a little responsibility to go along with those First Amendment rights you so like to exercise. But in the very next breath you cheer when other peoples' rights are denied them, such as my right to run for public office being denied to me merely because I'm an atheist.

You're not the morality police over everybody else, Vera. You don't have the right to tell other people how to live their lives. Other people have rights too. Whether you admit it or not. Whether you like it or not. Other people have rights too, Vera.

captain howdy said...

@Vera--

You said to Leigh--

Leigh

[Leigh] Please answer yes or no to the following question- Is it ok for human beings to own one another as property?

[Vera] No. And in the same way that Christians speak out against abortion, Christians spoke out against slavery to the abolishing of it.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Do you think Southern Baptists--as a denomination--are Christians, Vera? Because if you do, let me ask you: Why do you think they became SOUTHERN Baptists?

It's true that Christians were active in the abolition movement. It's also true that Christians were active in the vile practice of slavery also. It was Christians that brought that disgusting practice to America in the first place.

Leigh said...

Vera,

The supernatural cannot be tested by the natural. The body you obtain after death is obviously not the same as the body you have now. In the new heaven and new earth, for example, it says that there will be no seas. Does that mean that water will not be a necessity?


You have stated repeatedly that claims of the bible are being proven as true by scientists. I have and others here have REPEATEDLY asked for this proof, but refuse to give it.

You keep flip flopping back and forth, one days saying there is so much proof that we wouldn't believe it, then when we ask for it you say that the claims can't be tested. which is it , Vera???

There is no evidence that anyone is going to get a 'new body', or that there id going to be any 'new earth', therefore your claim is pure speculation.



I couldn't begin to tell you how that works. I have no idea. All I know is that hell is a real place. I know God because I was reconciled to Him through repentance. There is no question in my mind that heaven and hell are real.

You do not know that hell is a real place without scientific proof that it is. You simply choose to believe that it is.


That's because you are trying to test them with your frail finite mind and abilities. How funny. Why don't you tell us what produced the big bang? What was before that? How did that occur? What brought it about? Please test that for us with peer reviewed scientific research that can prove your assertions.

We do not yet know what produced the big bang, however, scientists believe that the answer is closely related to string theory. We actually have real scientists working on this, not ones who start with the conclusion that a sky wizard did something and then look for biased 'evidence' that it's true.

However, you are assuming that I believe the big bang actually happened. I have no idea what started the universe, and honestly, to me it doesn't matter. However,that doesn't mean a sky wizard did it.

Even psychology admits that there is an inner man. I know because I have been studying it in nursing and for the record, Freud copied it straight out of the Bible.


This is a complete non sequitur that does not answer my question, first of all, and second a lot of what Freud taught is no longer used in modern psychology. I don't particularly care about your claim that Freud plagiarized the bible, because Freud also had a lot of faults that made some of his psychology dubious at best.



I could so see you in the 18th and 19th century arguing for slavery. "That is strictly your opinion on slavery. You have no right to impose that opinion on the abolition of slavery on anyone else."

LOL !!! I am the one that has been advocating against slavery on your blog for 2 weeks and you now say you could see me advocating FOR it?? How stupid ARE you???

Christians are the ones that brought over slaves from Africa. You can not get around that fact, Vera.


Christians kept slaves here in the States and used the bible to argue for keeping them. Once again, it doesn't matter that Christians advocated to have them set free, when they started it int he first place and used the bible to advocate it.



Yes and babies started being murdered instead by the droves. The leading cause of death in America is murder - abortion

You completely skipped over my argument. When you are ready to go back and address it in full, let me know.


Actually, it is exactly what you are saying. Since the mother wants to murder her child because she got caught with per proverbial pants down, now let's make the murder of the child an easy and safe thing for her.


Nooooooooo....that is not exactly what I was saying. You can keep claiming it is, but that doesn't make it true. NOT ALL WOMEN WHO HAVE ABORTIONS ARE 'CAUGHT WITH THEIR PANTS DOWN', VERA.


But, to address the other half of your argument, you just caught yourself in your own web. Do you think that women who seek abortions deserve to die? A simple yes or nor no will do.


So how have you evolved? What? Now you buy your goat at the Piggly Wiggly and that somehow makes you superior intellectually?

The fact that I have critical thinking skills, logic and a large does of skepticism and use them on a daily basis to challenge everything I believe makes me intellectually superior to you. It has nothing to do with where I shop. I also don't eat pork.

I have heard secular anthropologists say that the men of 10,000 years ago had the some cognizant abilities and abstract thinking that we possess today without the data base of knowledge. The remarkable thing is that they wrote those things without the means to test them and they match reality.

Anddddddddd here we go again. WHICH 'things' in the bible 'match reality'?


The difference between you and most Christians is that you take responsibility for your actions. But even still that doesn't make you good enough compared to a Holy God. Only through the blood of Jesus can you receive that pardon for sin.



I am not in the least concerned about being good enough for your friend that lives in your head.


Can you tell me more of your story? How and why did you walk away from the church? It might help me help you.

I walked away from Christianity after years of struggle with the fact that it makes no sense and is illogical. This was not something that I woke up one morning and decided might be fun. I learned to think logically and critically and applied those thinking skills to my religion and saw that it made no sense. There's a LOT more to it than that, but that's a small nutshell. I also started to read tons of books about comparative religion and science. I also was an extremely devout Christian who prayed and fasted, truly believed that Jesus was the only way to heaven and that since I was saved I was going there, and I also tried to convert others. I saw the 'hand of God' in every single tiny instance of my life. I was not a middle of the road wishy-washy/Christmas and Easter only type. I felt incredibly deceived when I learned to think and started reading books about textural criticism of the bible. I realized that I had been lied to. Yes, I was lied to by well meaning people, but I was lied to nonetheless.

LOL! Vera, you are not going to talk me back into believing the mythology of Christianity. I'd love to see you try, but it won't work.

However, go ahead and give it your best shot. I'll give you the chance. Go ahead and present your best argument for why I should believe in Christianity again. Let's hear it. I'll bet it is nothing more than tripe you've already typed about threats of hell if I don't believe. If so, save it.


Also, I'm going out of town in a few hours so I won't be back for a couple of days. You've got that time to work up your best argument for Christianity. See ya.

Leigh said...

One more thing,

People need to keep their pants on and stop fornicating. That is the solution to the abortion problem not killing the child.

The answer to the abortion 'problem' is that people need to take responsibility for their actions and use freaking birth control.

The answer to the abortion problem is that grown men need to stop raping children so we don't have 9 year olds who need abortions. How about men stop raping in general? You want to hold women accountable for getting an abortion, but you never say a word about men and their behaviors.

Also, causing women to be killed by seeking unsafe abortions is not the answer to the abortion problem but it is what you advocate by wanting abortion outlawed.

Leigh said...

Vera,

No. And in the same way that Christians speak out against abortion, Christians spoke out against slavery to the abolishing of it.

Unfortunately, these things become a way of life for people and are excused and rationalized as though there is no other recourse. Why do you think the South pre-Civil War wouldn't give up their slaves? Why do you think they fought a bloody war over these things, amongst other issues? It was mandated and sanctioned by most governments down through the ages. Even when there isn't slavery, there is usually servitude in some regard because the rich don't like doing their own laundry or washing their dishes. What? Do you think Angelina Jolie does her own laundry for herself and her how many children like I do? They don't pay their servants a million dollars to do the laundry. They eek out just enough money to keep the servant happy. And for the African Americans that were freed, sadly, they were not able to achieve even after the abolishing of slavery because all they knew was servile labor. They had no education. It has taken many years for the black Americans to rise up out of the slavery mindset from the South. They were free but they were still servants. I grew up in Savannah, GA. Back in 1962 when I was in 1st grade, I vividly remember that we had black and white bathrooms and black and white water fountains as our school was being integrated. I don't remember anyone's name from 1st grade except the name of the one black boy in our school - Earnest. I also remember being in a fish store with my mom and a black family walking in. I started playing with the little girl in that family and I remember my mom feeling uncomfortable. I had no idea why.

I am grateful to know God because I hate prejudice seeing things from His perspective. I hate the way the black people in my city were oppressed. There is still so much prejudice in the South. It's like they are stuck in a time warp.


I've already answered this in my previous comment, but I wanted to be sure you didn't think you were getting a free pass on this one.

Christians brought slaves here from Africa and treated them horrifically, using the bible to justify their actions. Do NOT say they didn't use the bible to do so, because I happen to know of at least one instance personally where it did happen. When I have more time and if you are interested, I'll go into it.

Anyway, I've seen your take on biblical slavery before. You think it was some nice, posh job like bagging groceries. You think those slaves were treated with the utmost respect and that it was just another job to them. You need to believe that and have accepted the brainwashing required to believe that because otherwise you have to admit that your god allowed the horrific act of slavery to happen and did nothing about it, condoned it even.

verandoug said...

Leigh

Evil is not subjective by a long shot. Nobody would agree with you including many atheists. Murder is evil.

Why should women be ashamed of their breasts? There is nothing inherently sexual about breasts, and many countries have fully nude beaches where adults and children appear nude in front of each other and no harm is done. There is nothing inherently evil about nudity, Vera.

You have MADE breasts being shown in public evil to your kids because you have TOLD them it is evil. It was not inherently so, it it simply your religious frame of reference being projected on to the situation.

I feel bad for your kids. I hope they outgrow your insanity and weirdness.


And I feel bad for your kids growing up with a mom who has no sense of right and wrong. Good luck with that. Oh, and don't say I didn't tell you so when they hit around, oh way, 14, 15, 16.

Vera

Vera

verandoug said...

Vera,

Says who?

Says me. It was joke.


Uh huh. sure.

Vera

verandoug said...

Leigh

According to your bible, your god killed people all the time, even kids and babies.

Killing and murder are two completely different things. A police officer or military man kills for the purpose of protection. God kills for that reason as well to protect His people. It didn't always work because there were survivors and they nearly killed the Israelites during the time of Esther. Haman the Agagite was one.

The killing of babies was a means of protection both for these children who would have gone to hell and the results should they have lived. Trust me, those children got the best of the deal because they are in heaven. God took a great deal of flack to protect them.

Vera

captain howdy said...

@Vera--

The killing of babies was a means of protection both for these children who would have gone to hell and the results should they have lived. Trust me, those children got the best of the deal because they are in heaven. God took a great deal of flack to protect them.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Oh brother. So sometimes killing babies is OK, or even holy?


So can we expect to start seeing your little evangelism team showing up at abortion clinics and thanking the workers there for all the souls they're sending to heaven?

Kerri Love said...

And I feel bad for your kids growing up with a mom who has no sense of right and wrong. Good luck with that. Oh, and don't say I didn't tell you so when they hit around, oh way, 14, 15, 16.

No sense of right and wrong? Are you speaking of Leigh personally or anyone who doesn’t believe in the Christian God? Just because our ideas of right and wrong are not up to your standards, doesn’t mean we have no sense of it.

Not all women who have abortions are angels, but they aren’t all devils either.

Killing and murder are two completely different things. A police officer or military man kills for the purpose of protection.

Call it what you want, the definition doesn’t matter, killing is wrong. They are not two completely different things. How do you find them different, by motive alone?

God kills for that reason as well to protect His people

So Gods a bigot, good to know. God also doesn’t hold all life sacred, just the lives of HIS people.

The killing of babies was a means of protection both for these children who would have gone to hell and the results should they have lived

So that would be the same for the babies aborted. The children would have obviously gone go hell and now they automatically go to heaven. So that would mean abortion is a way to save the souls of those babies. They died before they could even sin, instead of growing up and sinning pretty much automaticly.

God took a great deal of flack to protect them

He also went though a great deal to kill them, and when he did, his solution DIDN’T WORK. He killed everyone with the flood but it didn’t seem to take long for civilization to sprout up and start where they left off. Why didn’t he know it wasn’t going to work? He basically killed all those people for no good reason since it changed nothing. Now people might argue that one of Noah’s daughter-in-laws had the ‘bad blood’ in her and that’s why sin continued, but God would have known that right? We also know that’s invalid because sin isn’t in blood. He should have known that too. I’ve never had this explained to me before, maybe you’d like to give it a try.

My apologies, Captain Howdy, I amuse myself but sometimes fail to amuse others. Thanks for letting me know I missed my mark, your critique will help me in future attempts to amuse)

verandoug said...

I have a lot on my plate right now. But as I can, I will respond to the letters submitted until I get through them. :-)

ImtheRabbit has left a new comment on your post "The Problems with the Doctrine of "Sin Nature."":

This is what our Founding Fathers wanted because they were concerned about the immoral doing what they wanted to do without someone speaking up about it.

The Founding Fathers wanted to make sure one religion or belief system didn't have more rights then any other and so laws would have to be built to govern the people. They wanted to stop oppression based on the choice of an individual’s faith. That's one of the reasons they escaped the rule in Europe. That one person's rule was law. In that way I guess they were trying to speak up about the immoral. The idea that one person's morals were free to disagree with another person’s morals and were not necessarily unlawful. At least that’s my opinion from what I’ve learned of them.


I think you are confusing freedom of speech with separation of church and state even though the term separation of church and state was an afterthought written by Thomas Jefferson in a personal letter.

Let me ask this. Vera do you think laws should be changed to meet the guidelines made by the Christian God?

The Bible contains civil laws, moral laws and ceremonial laws. Government, church, family, business and medicine are all jurisdictions. Civil law in many cases can be upheld to a populace. If your dog, for example, bites me or hurts me, there should be some recourse on you for the matter, which the Bible points out. Some of the medical laws can be implemented as well. The moral laws are virtually impossible to govern per police because how can I get inside your head to determine what it is you are thinking. The church, otoh, does monitor morality (or at least it's supposed to). I Cor. 5 for example, says not to eat with anyone who calls themselves a brother who is covetous or fornicating etc. And then it says not to judge those who are not Christians in the same way. Instead we would warn such a person where God stands on those actions. Jesus ate with those people but was harsh to the hypocrites. Now, He was harsh to sinners as well who were not supposedly church leaders because He always came down hard on sin issues knowing that this is what kept man separated from God. This may be difficult for you to understand, but the ordinances of the Law were nailed to the cross to usher in a new covenant. We are dead to the old one in Christ so that we no longer live under the bondage of the Law to do what is right. We are free from that because we have a righteousness that is imparted to us by faith.

You demonstrate over and over how much you hate freedom of speech, which is why it would not be good for you to hold public office. Once atheists became the overriding authority in the ps, the first thing they did was to remove freedom of speech where it came to religion.

The problem with that argument is which religion? You can't teach them all. That's why it is best for such things to be taught at HOME. Would you really want your children to learn about all the religions out there? I mean there are some that seem very tempting to young minds.


I agree with this, of course. But we never had anyone teaching us religion in our school. We were simply allowed to pray each morning. Now that freedom is taken away because atheists are offended. Their religious view is upheld. My son goes to the local community college, where for extra points in the class, he was required to hear an atheist give five points on atheism. Could a Christian give five points on Christianity? Oh, and you can say anything negative that you feel like about Christianity. Just don't say anything positive. None of the church's roles and accomplishments in history are mentioned.

The world has become so matter-of-fact about evil. The movies and books that are written paint Christians as bigots and the evil as good upright citizens. It has caused this nation to be brainwashed into believing that good is evil and evil is good.

I think good is still good, you just have a higher conception of "evil". I think abortion is evil but the woman who has an abortion can only be judged by me if I know all the facts. You simply believe the facts don't matter because it's evil and no matter what the facts are, she's still going to burn in hell. So for me the evil doesn't involve going to hell instead it involves me thinking that if she got pregnant because of her own stupidity, then she should have been the one being aborted. I still judge her quite harshly, but only if the cause was stupidity.


What about harsher sentences for rapists to discourage rape and/or people who make these heinous vile porn videos on rape. I think they should be sterilized. What do you think? That will solve 99.9% of that problem. Take away their incentive to harm others and create these situations that are not the fault of the girl.

I have a high intolerance of stupidity. If we had a way of telling someone is just really stupid then instead of hell, I'd put them in a facility in the Antarctic

Hear, hear.

Mark my words, in the future, people will try to rationalize pedophilia.

They already do, pedophilia is considered to be a mental illness. You still go to prison for it though.


I have witnessed to Muslims before who sincerely believe that Mohammed at 54 marrying a 9 yo is perfectly acceptable because at the time that is how they did things. If they can rationalize something that horrible, I think anyone can. My husband just happens to be 51 right now and my daughter is 9. So I kind of have a perspective on the matter. It is enough to make one throw up.

It won't start with a 6 yo. It will start older and work its way down

Vera you're a profit, They usually live on compounds and some call themselves Mormons


Prophet. But no, I'm a teacher, not a prophet. And Mormons are nuts. They are so ridiculous. I don't want to get into it, but they have changed Joseph Smith's prophecy so many times because it was obvious that it wasn't from God.

This may be true, but socialism isn't the answer. It doesn't allow for people to succeed

I'll never succeed because I'm Canadian, but at least I'll have healthcare.


One of my best friends through the Internet is Canadian. She and I were in the same homeschool program, which is how we met. We talked once through the camera on our computers. Her home is beautiful.

OK. I can receive that. Let's talk about some things that prove that the Bible is true and Christianity is real and that God is real. Are you open to discussing those things?

(Insert comments where people once again start asking for this proof yet again, and yet again) I would LOVE to talk about those things, that’s why I came :)

You have already decided that homosex and abortion are not moral issues.

I think they're moral issues, but I'm selfish and they don't involve me or my lifestyle and I don't perceive that they hurt me, so I'll just let them go to hell (btw, my spell check says the word ‘homosex’ isn’t a word)


It is selfish just to let them die in their sin. I know that homosex isn't a word....yet :-)

Slavery was a way of life for most civilizations up until the advent of modern technology.

Ok so my question on this is did God think it was wrong, and why didn't he do something about it sooner by teaching his people about it right away. He seemed awfully concerned about promising the success of a single bloodline.


Their success was paramount for the solution of bringing HIMSELF into the world. He wanted the Jews separated from everyone so that they wouldn't learn their customs that were about as bad as it gets. Unfortunately, the Jews didn't listen and they paid the price over and over for their stupidity. I think one of the worst practices they took on was the killing of babies on a hot statue. The Israelites copied that ridiculous practice. So every time they would do what their neighbors were doing, God would either put them under the harsh oppressive rule of some other nation or kick them off the land.

I could write a book and make money

You make it sound so easy :P


Writing is easy for me. I wish I could write a story though. I wish I could put all I know into the characters of a story.

He is willing to forgive because that is the kind of God He is.

'Kind of God' kinda makes it sound like there are different kinds of Gods, isn't there only one God? Sorry just had to say it, the devil speaks though me in the form of humor and, as we all know, mischief. Great, I’m channeling Loki.


The Bible says that we are like gods because we are created in God's image.

The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? John 10:33-36

Also, the Bible says that all the gods of the nations are idols but the Lord made the heavens and the earth.

Even though things may appear on the surface to have come about naturally, when one examines them closely, one has to admit that they are so fine tuned as to point to God

Ok but God sure had to practice to get things right, cause a lot of the creatures found in the fossil record no longer walk the earth,


The conditions of the earth were different at various times. The sun's luminosity has changed and the O2 content has changed several times over. Each animal that was created was perfectly suited to the time in which it lived.

Oh and the comment about the fossil record not showing gradualism might be a bit outdated. I actually took a look on how things have been going on that front from the last time I looked, which was high school. They’ve found a LOT more fossils in that time, and they even found the 'missing link'.

Tiktaalik is simply a creature that lived by the water's edge. The one that supposedly came before it had digits when Tiktaalik didn't. None of this stuff fits. What we do see is creatures moving from a water environment to land. This process follows the chronological story told in Genesis 1.

Course that's how things go, I suddenly find out that the big bang has gone from hypothesis to theory (highest one can go in science without out becoming mathematics)

Yes, and the Bible said it first. This is a synopsis of that.
http://www.reasons.org/resources/publications/facts-faith/2000issue03


and that Pluto is no longer a planet (WHEN did that happen). There is TONS of water in the solar system when I had learned it only existed on Earth. It goes on and on.

Right. I think hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe, if I recall correctly.

Our bodies are so remarkable. I mean to study the human body, one has to see that there are so many system parameters in place to keep us running healthy and whole until the idea of this emerging by itself, is ludicrous.

But the system parameters are always messing up. Just look at what tiny little viruses can do to it. That only brings the argument that maybe God isn't really on our side, but instead has a more 'everything out for itself' kinda belief. He's not routing for us as a winner, he's waiting to see who wins. Being faithful to God seems to have no effect on this, unless only people who sin get sick. In which case it's really easy to see who isn't sinning.


We could have lived without those things if we hadn't sinned. There is a passage in the Law that talks about a woman being accused of adultery. The priest was to have her drink tainted water with dirt off the floor. Kind of gross. If she was guilty, she would get very sick. If not, nothing would happen. See, if you aren't sinning, then you aren't susceptible to disease. But even if you aren't sinning, you are born with a body of death because sin entered into the world. We didn't inherit sin from Adam but death. What I find remarkable is discovering how many good things these tiny microscopic creatures do. But now that we are destined to die, we are vulnerable to their attack.

Please don't forget that it was Christians that spearheaded the movement to abolish slavery, not atheists.

Are you sure about that though? Maybe they were atheists in disguise. I thought the religious people of the time, twisted the bible to make it seem like the black people were inferior and that God told them they were cursed people meant to serve? Of course those "Christians" weren't actually Christians.


Maybe. But so far, it would appear that they were all God-fearing folks. Think about this. 200 years from now after aboriton is abolished, what will our great great great grandchildren say about it? They will point to the few times that so called Christians were in bed with the abortionists and like this video shows, a church was made into an abortion clinic. They will all gasp in horror at the thought and blame the Bible for this because children were killed in the Bible by God. They will say that Christians knew that these babies went to heaven so they did nothing. They will all gasp in horror again at the thought of anyone doing anything so mean and cruel. But will they remember me? Probably not, my friend.

Vera

verandoug said...

So with that being true, should you not capitalize the word for God even if it's in a different language?

I don't think so because it is really not God. It is the devil who deceives the nations.

Vera

verandoug said...

IC

I am happy to chat as long as you wish. It isn't a problem. I agree with you. The Bible said that Paul spent long hours reasoning with people. I do believe in the preacher on the streets. But I also believe in this:

But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

I think people should be able to know these things and talk about things they do know except that there shouldn't be strife. I try not to name call etc because I know it is a logical fallacy and proves nothing. It is one thing to point out a real bona fide sin. It is a whole nother thing to call someone a name to win an argument. It doesn't win the argument. :-)

I am not wholly convinced that you aren't seeking God and so you shall surely find Him. It is a maze out there today. And everyone has an opinion. Jesus gave us some ways we would know the real deal. One was that they walk without sin. This isn't making mistakes, but sin. He said we would know them by their fruits. I don't agree with everyone that is free from sin on every issue. But we have a connection that is unbreakable. It is hard to explain.

That is interesting about the grizzly and the polar bear. I didn't know that. Is there documentation of this? I think it is astounding how God has created things that can interbreed like that. It explains why we see varieties of the same species.

Thanks for sharing that!
Vera

verandoug said...

And I feel bad for your kids growing up with a mom who has no sense of right and wrong. Good luck with that. Oh, and don't say I didn't tell you so when they hit around, oh way, 14, 15, 16.

No sense of right and wrong? Are you speaking of Leigh personally or anyone who doesn’t believe in the Christian God? Just because our ideas of right and wrong are not up to your standards, doesn’t mean we have no sense of it.


I am speaking of Leigh specifically. She talks about abortion like it is a blob of tissue. Abortion is a criminal practice but she continues to defend those who do it on the grounds of the obscure.

Not all women who have abortions are angels, but they aren’t all devils either.

Mothering is the greatest responsibility God has given to a woman. It begins the moment that child is conceived. We stop taking pills and suffer through headaches. We eat properly. We take vitamins even though they make us feel sicker than a dog. Once that baby is born, our lives go on hold. Every waking minute that that baby is awake, we are responsible to care for it. We have to change its diapers, feed it regularly and hold him or her when they are crying. How many nights did my husband and I take turns rocking a sick child?

The thought of murdering one of my children before they were born is unconscionable. It is so opposite of what a good mother is. And trust me, I had hard circumstances in my life that were not easy as I went through those pregnancies. So no, I have no sympathy for a woman that would kill her own child. It is gross. Since Leigh's view of mothering is to murder he own child lest she use a coat hanger, I feel for her children as well. These things have a tendency to spill over into your attitude and role as a mother.

Killing and murder are two completely different things. A police officer or military man kills for the purpose of protection.

Call it what you want, the definition doesn’t matter, killing is wrong. They are not two completely different things. How do you find them different, by motive alone?


Per God's holy standard. Murder is done in revenge by a human. Humans have no ability to make that kind of judgment especially out of hatred. God, otoh, is pure and holy. He is the only One able to make that just judgment.

However, we as people would be irresponsible if we didn't punish the wicked and serve justice. Did you see The Changeling? I thought that movie exemplified why we have the death penalty. The man got what he deserved after murdering those poor innocent boys.

God kills for that reason as well to protect His people

So Gods a bigot, good to know. God also doesn’t hold all life sacred, just the lives of HIS people.


Partially because the salvation of mankind would come through the Jews. So yes, He did make a point of protecting them. But He also let them have it plenty of times. I mean, they suffered a great deal because of their sins probably more than the people around them.

The killing of babies was a means of protection both for these children who would have gone to hell and the results should they have lived

So that would be the same for the babies aborted. The children would have obviously gone go hell and now they automatically go to heaven. So that would mean abortion is a way to save the souls of those babies. They died before they could even sin, instead of growing up and sinning pretty much automaticly.


No because we as humans are not fit to make such a choice. We are not in the same dispensation those children were born into. We are in the time of grace where anyone, Jew or Gentile, can be set free from sin. Those children had no hope but to die and go to hell. God had mercy on them.

God took a great deal of flack to protect them

He also went though a great deal to kill them, and when he did, his solution DIDN’T WORK. He killed everyone with the flood but it didn’t seem to take long for civilization to sprout up and start where they left off. Why didn’t he know it wasn’t going to work? He basically killed all those people for no good reason since it changed nothing. Now people might argue that one of Noah’s daughter-in-laws had the ‘bad blood’ in her and that’s why sin continued, but God would have known that right? We also know that’s invalid because sin isn’t in blood. He should have known that too. I’ve never had this explained to me before, maybe you’d like to give it a try.


I don't think so. I think what happened was that there were these Antediluvian folks who were powerful. It speaks of these people in Genesis 6. I will give you my totally unsubstantiated hypothesis. That means it isn't even a theory yet. :-) I used to believe that Adam and Eve were halfway through the first Saturday, when they decided to chuck God and eat some fruit. Now I realize that it is more likely that time passed between the time they were created and the time they sinned. In fact, I think it was a loooooong time maybe even a few thousand years. I say that because Eve is alone, speaks snake amongst other things, and has a pretty good working knowledge of who God is. Plus she desires the kind of wisdom that God has. It sounds like something she would look at over time and desire. If this is the case, I think she probably had children before she sinned. So that when the Bible states that the "sons of God" went into the daughters of men because they were beautiful, that this is speaking of these pre fall folks. I say that because the Bible clearly states that these children born of this union were people of renown and giants. I believe the kind of power they wielded, whatever that was, is the reason that God killed everyone but Noah. They not only were bent on evil but were powerful in what they did. However, don't forget that Noah preached to them trying to warn them, just like I'm trying to warn you.


Vera

verandoug said...

CH

Oh brother. So sometimes killing babies is OK, or even holy?


So can we expect to start seeing your little evangelism team showing up at abortion clinics and thanking the workers there for all the souls they're sending to heaven?


Like I said, we are in a different dispensation where both Jews and Gentiles are filled with the Spirit of God to be freed from sin. So no, that would not be ok. But in that dispensation, those children were hopeless. Had they grown up, they would have followed in their parent's footsteps and done as much and worse than their parents. Instead they died innocent and were ushered into heaven.

You forget something, CH. Death is a forgone conclusion whether you live here for 2 seconds or 120 years. You are going to die and there is no mockery that is going to get you out of it. You could die tomorrow or live another how many years? But eventually, death for you and I will come to pass. So what God did wasn't cruel. It was merciful toward these particular children. Had they grown up, they would have suffered for all of eternity. If they could get a message to you from the grave, they would tell you to muzzle your mouth toward God because they're grateful that they are where they are because they know what would have happened had they lived.

God is the ONLY one that could make such a choice. We are not able to make those choices. Our position as Christians is to persuade men. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men. A Christian police officer or for that matter an atheistic police officer has a right and a responsibility to kill when it is right to do so.

Nowadays, those full of the Spirit take on the children of the lost and raise them as their own. We can do that because we've been set free from sin.

Vera

Leigh said...

Vera,

I am at a business conference and I am actually taking time out of my busy day here to respond to your nonsense.


And I feel bad for your kids growing up with a mom who has no sense of right and wrong. Good luck with that. Oh, and don't say I didn't tell you so when they hit around, oh way, 14, 15, 16.


I hate to pop your bubble Vera, but I have a 19 year old son and a 19 year old daughter. They are excellent kids, son graduated high school early and already started college at doing very well, daughter getting ready to graduate with honors. Neither have ever been in trouble except for accidentally letting the neighbors dogs out once when they were both much younger. They were not raised in a church, neither believe in any gods or deities and they have a fantastic sense of right and wrong. I'm sorry that your 'I told ya so' failed so miserably.

Now before you go on the "Where is there father?" routine, he was killed before they were teenagers and I've raised them on my own.


Killing and murder are two completely different things. A police officer or military man kills for the purpose of protection. God kills for that reason as well to protect His people. It didn't always work because there were survivors and they nearly killed the Israelites during the time of Esther. Haman the Agagite was one.

The killing of babies was a means of protection both for these children who would have gone to hell and the results should they have lived. Trust me, those children got the best of the deal because they are in heaven. God took a great deal of flack to protect them.


Uh...no. this has already been addressed by other posters here, but your god does not get to do one thing and tell others to do another. There is either a standard or there isn't and if your god fails to follow it, yet tells others to, then he is a lying hypocrite just like you are.

Any of your other claims in that paragraph are simply nonsense to cover up for the fact that your magic book proves that the star of the show is a murderer.


I am speaking of Leigh specifically. She talks about abortion like it is a blob of tissue. Abortion is a criminal practice but she continues to defend those who do it on the grounds of the obscure.


First trimester abortions are not a criminal act and you are ignoring the fact that I have said that abortions are over used as a form of birth control. I have no idea what 'on the grounds of the obscure means'. You are attempting here to present a strawman argument against me, but you can't even do that properly.

And who ever said that embryos are just blobs of tissue? I didn't.

Since Leigh's view of mothering is to murder he own child lest she use a coat hanger, I feel for her children as well. These things have a tendency to spill over into your attitude and role as a mother.

You hold the view that first trimester abortion is murder. That does not make it so.

I do not believe in 'murdering children' (another attempt at a strawman on your part. I do not consider first trimester abortions murder.

And yes, YOU have to make a decision, Vera. Which is better? Masses of women dying from infection due to dirty abortions or those women living? No matter whether you have had a safe abortion or the woman has died of sepsis, a life has still ended. All you have done is chosen a later date.


What you do is ignore 99% of what I type and attack with logical fallacies and unfounded speculation the 1% you bother to read. I don't mind, though. You don't have anything of substance to back up any of your claims anyway, as you have repeatedly shown.

verandoug said...

That’s ok, I like tangents. I don’t understand what you mean by them going to far though, could you clarify? Is this in terms of people who are brain dead being kept alive by machines? Here’s a philosophical question. Do you think when a person is brain dead that they have already gone to heaven?

I don't know. Probably not because some people who are supposedly flat line come back. I think when everything stops heart and brain, you are dead. That's a personal opinion but I haven't really studied anything on it. I'm just talking off the top of my head.

My problem with medicine is when an 85 year old woman comes in who is obviously dying and they start trying many measures to keep her alive. Don't do that to me. I am ready to go.

Does that mean you want to be the person who turns some away? Would the doorkeeper be the one to judge who gets to come in? Sorry I’m just a little confused by that statement. I think I’d want to be the person as far away from the suffering in hell as I could possibly be. I say again, I can’t condone torture.

Wow. I never considered that the doorkeeper would have to judge. That was a great revelation. Thanks for sharing that. The saints will judge not only people but the angels as well. I don't think from the perspective of heaven that we will be seeing it as we see it from this side because your thoughts will be naked and open to the world. That is the big difference between judging here and judging there. You will see for yourself how much God did to manifest Himself to each person and how they kept rejecting Him over and over. You will see how much nature declares that God is real and how undeniable it is.

Vera

captain howdy said...

ImtheRabbit said--

My apologies, Captain Howdy, I amuse myself but sometimes fail to amuse others. Thanks for letting me know I missed my mark, your critique will help me in future attempts to amuse)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What critique are you talking about? You completely threw me with your comment.

I don't recall sending any comments your way (but correct me if I'm wrong; I've got comments on quite a few blogs and it's easy to lose track).

verandoug said...

Leigh

Now why didn't I know you were going to trample my little pearl under your feet?

No, there is not always someone hurt. You got dicked over by some dude and you carry a grudge about sex because of it. You also make the generalization that someone will ALWAYS be hurt. All it takes to kill a generalization and to destroy your argument is ONE example to the contrary. There are a lot of people who are not hurt by sleeping around. Generalizations make you look stupid because they are so easily proven wrong.

Something tells me that you are naive and young. How old are you? Because the world is full of hurting people broken up over past relationships. I gave you one example in my life. There were others.

Religion is evil. It is the false belief that ritual and the Law can make man righteous. Christianity is set apart from religion because....

LOLOL!!!! Christianity is a religion !!! This is a perfect example of another one of your logical fallacies, int his instance you are using special pleading. Logical fallacies make for failed arguments.


I am just telling you what Jesus said and how much He spoke against religiosity. What people do is another thing. There are many people that put a Christian label on their product who are no more Christian than the man in the moon. The sooner you figure that out, the better. You are on the losing team, Leigh. You walked away from God, no doubt, because of something that happened. You are so confident in this idea that you are right. You aren't right. You are dead wrong.

Clearly you are not a parent. Parents cannot stop young adults from sinning. Once a person reaches the age of accountability, knowing right from wrong, they are accountable to God for their actions. I could sit here all day long trying to tell you what is good and righteous just like a parent....

It is the parents responsibility to keep kids from doing stupid things, to not let the tv be their babysitter and to talk to them about life and the world around them. Also, I have training in early childhood education.


You are extremely out of touch with what goes on in the world. As a parent, it is a constant battle trying to help my young adults make wise choices because all their friends are doing the opposite. I have to keep a constant communication open to them. You would be the very kind of friend that would tell my children it is no big deal to sleep around and get an abortion if pregnancy should occur. That is what we as parents are up against. The devil through someone like you, can make sin seem attractive and accessible.

Saying that someone can not understand a situation or should not comment on it unless they have lived it is not a valid argument, because one does not have to direct experience to have an opinion on a situation.

That is probably true but you are speaking about things you have no clue about. I have 6 children, 5 of which are teenagers. I think I can say with all certainty that I know what I'm up against.

I would PAY for you to take some critical thinking and logic courses at a local community college. I'm not joking, I would pay for it out of my own pocket.

No thanks. I read a great deal. I keep a link to logical fallacies on my web browser. Plus if this is the garbage that turned you away from God, I want no part of it.

Vera, is it ever ok for one human being to own another as property?

No. But governments that are outside of my control condoned it up until the day when technology gave man the ability to do the chores he hated without slavery.

You only dodge the question because you know that slavery is immoral, period.


But man's heart is hard. It is the same reason that God allowed divorce in the OT. In the new covenant, Jesus made some very strict comments on the topic.

This article shares what the Bible had to say about slavery

http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=120.

Vera

verandoug said...

IC

a person reaches the age of accountability, knowing right from wrong, they are accountable to God for their actions

Then that would be about the age 25right? The part of the brain, in the frontal lobe I believe, is the place where true consequence is located. This part of the brain doesn't fully develop until late 20's. That's why kids do stupid stuff and when you ask them why, they have no idea.

So if you can't really understand consequence then do you really know right from wrong? Can God judge that as sin if the human can't truly understand the consequence?


I would disagree with this because the Bible says this, "Even a child is known by his doings, whether his work be pure, and whether it be right. Proverbs 20:11 I think the moment a person understands right from wrong and chooses to the opposite, they are sinning against a Holy God. The real question is when that occurs. Some people suggest puberty. The Jews made a ceremony for that occasion called a bar mitzvah.

Here's the part about hell I don't like... if you do something wrong, then the devil made you do it. That's just way too easy and pretty much diverts all blame to Satan.

I would agree with your wisdom on this. The devil tempts us. He doesn't make us do anything. God says that He won't allow you to be tempted above what you can handle but will with every temptation provide a way of escape. It also says in James that we are drawn away and enticed by our own lusts. God doesn't tempt us.

Leigh:
I have to bow to your logic on a few of those points. True we should teach about all fluids... The only thing that might make sex different is the body is trying to do everything it can to make you have it :P


I think a lot of people are going to wish that they didn't make sex such a priority.

Vera

verandoug said...

Weemaryanne
What's wrong with parents that pray?

1) Nothing fails like prayer.

And 2), let me paint a hypothetical picture for you, V.

Suppose you had a brother; suppose you had mentioned him a few times; suppose you had mentioned that his name is, oh I don't know, let's say Archie.

Furthermore, let's suppose that your brother Archie is an atheist. (Or freethinker, nonbeliever, agnostic, whatever label he chooses to use for himself.)

Now, listen carefully and fire up your imagination, please.

Suppose I choose to reply to some point you've made with something like: tee-hee, Vera thinks she can convince me that her imaginary friend is real but she can't even convince her own brother, how funny.

. . . . .

Don't answer right away. Just let it kinda roll around in your mind for awhile.

Then tell me: What would be wrong with my using such a tactic?

(Apart from the fact that it completely fails to answer any point you've made. There are other reasons and I want you to find at least one of them. Good luck.)


I am not sure what your point is here. I do have a brother and he doesn't believe. I have all kinds of people who don't want to believe. Be assured, prayer works.

Vera

Leigh said...

Vera,

Now why didn't I know you were going to trample my little pearl under your feet?


I'm sorry, was there a pearl in any of what you said? It must have been microscopic, because it certainly wasn't obvious.


Something tells me that you are naive and young. How old are you? Because the world is full of hurting people broken up over past relationships. I gave you one example in my life. There were others.


If you had bothered to READ my above post you would know that I have 2 19 year old children. I am neither young, nor am I naive. Funny how people who disagree with you suddenly become, in your eyes, 'young and naive'. It couldn't possibly be that other have different experiences with the world than you do.

You see a world full of hurting people over broken relationships and miss the people who are NOT hurting over a broken anything. Your confirmation bias is so strong and your critical thinking skills so under developed that I doubt you'd ever be able to have a critical thought.

I am just telling you what Jesus said and how much He spoke against religiosity. What people do is another thing. There are many people that put a Christian label on their product who are no more Christian than the man in the moon. The sooner you figure that out, the better. You are on the losing team, Leigh. You walked away from God, no doubt, because of something that happened. You are so confident in this idea that you are right. You aren't right. You are dead wrong.


I have already TOLD you why I am no longer a Christian and you OBVIOUSLY didn't read that either or you would not assume that I "walked away from god because of something that happened".

You know, the more I read you, the more I think that you really don't even read anything anyone has to say. You just use it as a platform to spout bible verses and other junk.

You are extremely out of touch with what goes on in the world. As a parent, it is a constant battle trying to help my young adults make wise choices because all their friends are doing the opposite.

I'm out of touch? You have kids that give you trouble and I'M the one that is out of touch???

Sorry your kids have issues, but mine don't. Don't use the fact that your kids turned out to be troublesome to make your deflated point that I'm out of touch.

You would be the very kind of friend that would tell my children it is no big deal to sleep around and get an abortion if pregnancy should occur.

LOL !!! I have never told anyone teenager or adult to have an abortion or to sleep around.

You NEED to believe these things about other people to make yourself feel better about your own weird beliefs about people who are different than yourself.

That is what we as parents are up against. The devil through someone like you, can make sin seem attractive and accessible.

The devil, huh? Maybe the 'devil' is why your kids are giving you fits and mine are doing so well.

You really shot yourself in the foot, Vera. By not reading my previous comment and then coming back and accusing me of being young and yammering on about how I can't possibly know what it's like to have kids, you've made yourself look like a total and complete idiot. Enjoy that.

That is probably true but you are speaking about things you have no clue about. I have 6 children, 5 of which are teenagers. I think I can say with all certainty that I know what I'm up against.

Had you read my previous comment you wouldn't have so much egg on your face right now with statements like this.

No thanks. I read a great deal. I keep a link to logical fallacies on my web browser. Plus if this is the garbage that turned you away from God, I want no part of it.

Vera, don't lie. Just don't. If you had a clue what a logical fallacy was then you wouldn't use them every single time you sit down to type.

What do you read, Vera? The bible, I'm sure, but what else?


No. But governments that are outside of my control condoned it up until the day when technology gave man the ability to do the chores he hated without slavery.

Man could have done the chores he hated without slavery all along if he would have gotten up off his lazy butt and did them. Did you just use the exclude that slavery was ok because people were too lazy to do their own work???



But man's heart is hard. It is the same reason that God allowed divorce in the OT. In the new covenant, Jesus made some very strict comments on the topic.

This article shares what the Bible had to say about slavery

http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=120.



You can take your article and shove it. Why would I read anything you link to when you come here and make such a fool of yourself by making statements about how I'm young and naive and would tell kids to have abortions and sleep around, when you obviously didn't even READ that I have grown kids.

Vera, you make Christians look bad. Really, really bad. Your behavior is hypocritical and bigoted and you can't even be bothered to try to not make yourself look like a dolt when you type. I have nothing but pity for you.

Weemaryanne said...

"...I do have a brother and he doesn't believe. I have all kinds of people who don't want to believe. Be assured, prayer works. "

*facepalm*

If they don't believe and you've been praying for them, then that would suggest that prayer DOESN'T work.

Or maybe it's just your prayers that don't work.

*F*A*I*L*

----------------------
BTW, lemme get this straight: You have nonbelievers (and apparently, wannabe nonbelievers, whatever that may be) in your own family, and yet you still make ignorant assertions about how baaad unbelievers are, even though you must know better?

How can you do that without - um, what's the word - oh - LYING?

verandoug said...

weemaryanne

"...I do have a brother and he doesn't believe. I have all kinds of people who don't want to believe. Be assured, prayer works. "

*facepalm*

If they don't believe and you've been praying for them, then that would suggest that prayer DOESN'T work.

Or maybe it's just your prayers that don't work.

*F*A*I*L*

----------------------
BTW, lemme get this straight: You have nonbelievers (and apparently, wannabe nonbelievers, whatever that may be) in your own family, and yet you still make ignorant assertions about how baaad unbelievers are, even though you must know better?

How can you do that without - um, what's the word - oh - LYING?


I have prayed for you. Interestingly, you got a great victory in your life in terms of losing weight. That self control comes from God's Spirit.

But even with that evidence, it is still up to you, as a freewill agent, to believe. I can't make you believe. I can't get in your mind and juggle your thoughts and God won't do that either. He won't make you do what it is you are supposed to do. He wants you to choose Him.

If my brother doesn't come to God by faith, that is his own choice. OTOH, I have seen others come to Christ that I've prayed for because they chose God. God says that He manifests Himself to every man. When the thoughts of men are revealed and laid open, I know that I know that I know that it is going to be crystal clear that God did just that. I know He did it to me.

Here is another interesting fact. Jesus said that God was keeping certain people from understanding. Mostly it had to do with pride. Are you a proud person, weemaryanne? Would you say mocking and scorning your Creator God and His ways a point of pride? God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble.

In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight. All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him. And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see: For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

God won't reveal Himself to a mocker. In fact, the Bible clearly states this. Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Vera

verandoug said...

I'm sorry, was there a pearl in any of what you said? It must have been microscopic, because it certainly wasn't obvious.

The swine wouldn't notice it either.


Something tells me that you are naive and young. How old are you? Because the world is full of hurting people broken up over past relationships. I gave you one example in my life. There were others.


If you had bothered to READ my above post you would know that I have 2 19 year old children. I am neither young, nor am I naive. Funny how people who disagree with you suddenly become, in your eyes, 'young and naive'. It couldn't possibly be that other have different experiences with the world than you do.


I may not have gotten to that post yet. You have written so much that it is hard to read it all when I get busy.

I am shocked that you have such Godly children when you give them free reign to fornicate and abort. Or does that just apply to everyone else and not your own? Is it ok for one of your children to abort one of your grandchildren?

You see a world full of hurting people over broken relationships and miss the people who are NOT hurting over a broken anything. Your confirmation bias is so strong and your critical thinking skills so under developed that I doubt you'd ever be able to have a critical thought.

Listen to Dr. Laura for a day. Perhaps you don't get out too much.

I am just telling you what Jesus said and how much He spoke against religiosity. What people do is another thing. There are many people that put a Christian label on their product who are no more Christian than the man in the moon. The sooner you figure that out, the better. You are on the losing team, Leigh. You walked away from God, no doubt, because of something that happened. You are so confident in this idea that you are right. You aren't right. You are dead wrong.


I have already TOLD you why I am no longer a Christian and you OBVIOUSLY didn't read that either or you would not assume that I "walked away from god because of something that happened".

You know, the more I read you, the more I think that you really don't even read anything anyone has to say. You just use it as a platform to spout bible verses and other junk.


There are 151 posts in my inbox. It has been that way for a while. I keep trying to get to the end of it, but it takes time. I got sidetracked for a few days talking to some men about YEC vs. OEC. It consumed my time.

You are extremely out of touch with what goes on in the world. As a parent, it is a constant battle trying to help my young adults make wise choices because all their friends are doing the opposite.

I'm out of touch? You have kids that give you trouble and I'M the one that is out of touch???


You are no danger to the enemy so that he doesn't attack you the way he attacks our family constantly. I have good children that are doing well. Their pics are there for you to see.

Sorry your kids have issues, but mine don't. Don't use the fact that your kids turned out to be troublesome to make your deflated point that I'm out of touch.

I would consider a child that was fornicating and aborting trouble. You don't. When we hold up the actions that you hold true to God's holy standard, your children could be covered with piercing, fornicating, homosexual, as long as they make good grades in school. Thus your assessment is not what I would consider a "good child." And who's to say that one of them isn't seeking God. Wouldn't that be an irony? :-)

You would be the very kind of friend that would tell my children it is no big deal to sleep around and get an abortion if pregnancy should occur.

LOL !!! I have never told anyone teenager or adult to have an abortion or to sleep around.


I can pull up your comments if you'd like.

You NEED to believe these things about other people to make yourself feel better about your own weird beliefs about people who are different than yourself.

No, Leigh. You're wrong. Right is right and wrong is wrong. This tolerant view of life is disgusting to me. It causes so much pain to so many.

That is what we as parents are up against. The devil through someone like you, can make sin seem attractive and accessible.

The devil, huh? Maybe the 'devil' is why your kids are giving you fits and mine are doing so well.


Maybe. You are certainly no threat. In fact, he is your father.

You really shot yourself in the foot, Vera. By not reading my previous comment and then coming back and accusing me of being young and yammering on about how I can't possibly know what it's like to have kids, you've made yourself look like a total and complete idiot. Enjoy that.

I am telling you that you are out of touch with reality. Your whole attitude led me to believe that you couldn't possibly have children.

That is probably true but you are speaking about things you have no clue about. I have 6 children, 5 of which are teenagers. I think I can say with all certainty that I know what I'm up against.

Had you read my previous comment you wouldn't have so much egg on your face right now with statements like this.

No thanks. I read a great deal. I keep a link to logical fallacies on my web browser. Plus if this is the garbage that turned you away from God, I want no part of it.

Vera, don't lie. Just don't. If you had a clue what a logical fallacy was then you wouldn't use them every single time you sit down to type.


You have used them constantly by attacking my character over and over. It doesn't prove anything. God is real. He has a standard. He died on the cross of Calvary for your sins. Whatever you may use as an ad hominem argument about me, it will never change this fact.

What do you read, Vera? The bible, I'm sure, but what else?

Your letters LOL

No. But governments that are outside of my control condoned it up until the day when technology gave man the ability to do the chores he hated without slavery.

Man could have done the chores he hated without slavery all along if he would have gotten up off his lazy butt and did them. Did you just use the exclude that slavery was ok because people were too lazy to do their own work???


Yes but rich folks don't like that plan. I didn't say it was right. I said that governments condoned it.


But man's heart is hard. It is the same reason that God allowed divorce in the OT. In the new covenant, Jesus made some very strict comments on the topic.

This article shares what the Bible had to say about slavery

http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=120.



You can take your article and shove it. Why would I read anything you link to when you come here and make such a fool of yourself by making statements about how I'm young and naive and would tell kids to have abortions and sleep around, when you obviously didn't even READ that I have grown kids.


Ad hominem. Read the article or be quiet.

Vera, you make Christians look bad. Really, really bad. Your behavior is hypocritical and bigoted and you can't even be bothered to try to not make yourself look like a dolt when you type. I have nothing but pity for you.

Ad hominem.

Vera

verandoug said...

Leigh

No atheists took freedom of speech out of public schools. Either you are a complete liar, or you are completely misinformed.

You can bring a bible to school, you can pray at school, you can have a bible study, you can form groups like Christian Athlete's Association.

It is not however MANDATORY for all students, as it should have never been.


These things only occurred after folks like Jay Sekulow fought for the rights of Christian students to do these things. Before that, they were being persecuted for having Bible studies. The ACLJ took it to the highest court.

In regards to the teaching, all mention of God, including the times where men prayed and God intervened, are removed from the text. Although, I think that paradigm is shifting, once again, thank God! I have a secular nursing book that went into depth and detail on how Florence Nightingale specifically said that God told her to form the nursing process to improve the standard of care of patients taking it from around 2% to 60% recovery. I was shocked to finally see that kind of mention again in a secular textbook.

Silent prayer should be allowed and encouraged. Nobody was asked to pray to anyone but the God they wished to pray to. This was removed because atheists were offended. One nation under God is being fought against because atheists and their religious views are offended. Crosses are being targeted and the Ten Commandments because atheists are offended. Nativity scenes within the school are prohibited because atheists are offended. They have removed the whole idea of Christmas from the holiday and made it winter festival or something like that. But God forbid that we should skip Halloween. Atheism is one religious view. It should not preclude everyone else's view. This is exactly what the founding fathers did not want.

Vera

verandoug said...

Yet another rehashing of the same tripe you've said before, but this time you present a new logical fallacy, that of the slippery slope. You did this in your pedo argument. Just more junk from you with no evidence to back it up.

Homosex was unthinkable 50 years ago. Now look where we are. Bestiality is in Internet porn and rape.

Please tell this to the people living in places like Sweden where they have a mix of capitalism and socialism. It's called a social democracy and you couldn't be more wrong about anything you have said here is you had actually tried.

The Swedes are from Christian roots. I demonstrated that when a good friend from Norway wrote a long post for me on how these folks think. They are copying us. They look up to us.

http://verandoug.blogspot.com/2008/11/norwegians-view-of-america.html

Is this some kind of freaking joke? How many people here,myself included, have asked you to back up your claims about the bible and science and you NEVER do. YOU are the one that had never been open to proving your claims.

Ask me a question.

You forget it was Christians who brought slaves to the US in the first place.

You forget that no sinner will inherit the kingdom and that menstealing is condemned right along with fornication. John Newton repented. Just because someone claims to be a Christian doesn't make them a Christian, Leigh. You are a prime example. You have no idea who God is -not even a small idea and you demonstrate over and over that you never have.

Vera

verandoug said...

Leigh

What do you think of t-rex? Is that an evil wicked animal for being terrifying and eating the way it does?

WT????? What does this question have to do with anything???? Are you on drugs?


See, this reaction clearly points to the fact that you have no idea what Christians believe or how the world of nature fits the God of the Bible.

Vera

verandoug said...

That has NOTHING to do with what I said.

What I said was that the word Allah , in Arabic, means 'god', and that Christians in Arab speaking countries use this word to refer to god, because that is what the word MEANS in ARABIC.

None of that is contingent upon Mohammad being a pedo or whether you think he was a god or not. It is simply the translation of the word 'Allah'.


This is how allah operates.

Iraq – Two Christian Sisters Killed

On Nov. 12, two sisters were killed and their mother wounded by a gang of Islamic extremists in the Al Qahira section of Mosul, Iraq, according to VOM contacts. The gunmen shot one of the sisters as she was waiting for a bus outside their home. They then stormed into the home, killed the other sister and injured their mother. A bomb placed by the assailants at the entrance of the house detonated as police arrived on the scene, injuring several officers.
This incident is the latest in a series of attacks on Christians that have occurred in Mosul, in recent weeks. Since October, more than seven Christians have been killed and more than 200 families displaced. The Christian community in Iraq is estimated to be 3 percent of Iraq’s 26 million people, or about 800,000. Some Christians believe they are being targeted in an effort to wipe out the Christian community's economic activity and drive believers from the area. Since 2003, Christian leaders, churches and businesses in Iraq have been targeted by Islamic extremists. As a result, many believers have fled.
The Voice of the Martyrs encourages you to pray for this family as they mourn their loss and for healing for the injured mother. VOM is working to provide assistance to this grieving family. VOM has also responded with 300 Action Packs to help persecuted and displaced believers in Mosul. Pray displaced families will return safely to their homes, and ask God to protect them and other believers in Iraq as they risk all for their faith.
Posted December 17, 2008


That is not how God operates. We are not under the dispensation that Israel was in many thousands of years ago in anticipation of your argument and we are not the reprobates of that day. allah is satan. These Christians do not see the god of islam as God Almighty and they are in extreme danger as a result.

Vera

verandoug said...

Leigh

What is the point of sending anyone over to some drivel laden junk website full of scripture and TABLOID claims ?? That is EXACTLY what you sent me to. Yet, when I send you to something that dares show your magic book in a bad light, you get into a huff over it. Let me guess...people are supposed to blindly swallow your magic book and the crap that RTB puts out, but no one is supposed to dare point out the other side. And you say atheists aren't neutral???


In context or out of context,the POINT is the same here...your god killed children and infants in the bible. If it is moral for him to do so, then you can not say that is never a moral choice for a human being to do so, because you destroy your own argument by using special pleading.

Did the point sink through that time


Ad hominem and you haven't given any evidence to support your claims against RTB only your opinion. You haven't once done anything but assume that you are right per your own opinion. Give me something that points to a truth.

The children that God took were taken straight to heaven because they died innocent. Had they lived, they would have surely wound up in hell's fire. It was a mercy for Him to do that for them probably because of how tormented they were. You have no idea what kind of people these people were and how they lived their lives. You assume that they were sweet angels. They make anything evil today look like it's standing still. You abort babies. These folks put babies on hot fiery statues and played drums as loud as they could to drown out the screams. They slit the stomach of mothers. I can't even dream up that mentality. They had sex orgies. It is stuff that not even our R rated movies would display.

Vera

Weemaryanne said...

"...Would you say mocking and scorning your Creator God and His ways a point of pride?..."

No, because I've never mocked an imaginary being. (Wouldn't know how.) Wake up, Vera: You are the one that I'm mocking.

Oh, but you give yourself an out: My imaginary friend won't reveal himself to anyone who thinks/says/laughs that he's imaginary.

How very convenient for you.

Weemaryanne said...

"....Homosex was unthinkable 50 years ago....."

BZZTT. WRONG.

It does not surprise me, Vera, that you're unfamiliar with the history of Periclean Athens or with the methods used by the Spartans to train their army.

It does not surprise me that you're unaware of a man called Alan Turing. He was the mathematical genius responsible for the Enigma codebreaking machine which helped the Allies to defeat the Nazis. He was harassed into suicide by British intelligence agents, not because he had committed any crime, but because he was gay.

It DOES surprise me, though, that you've apparently forgotten about King David's bestest friend in his youth: a young man named Jonathan. The Old Testament gets pretty specific about how close these young men were, and also about how the relationship angered Jonathan's father.

Hmm. I'm thinking that no father would be angry that his son has a best friend. A certain type of father, however, might be angry that his son has a homosexual lover.

So there goes the "unthinkable" part of your claim.

verandoug said...

Leigh

Finally a civilized question.

And how would they do in an academic situation where they had to explain concepts like abiogenesis, evolution and speciation? Not very well, I think.

I'm glad you asked that question. My son, who is more of an introvert compared to some of my other children, attended a lecture about atheism because it was expected. Afterward, my son publicly tore down at least two of his points through sheer logic.

My children know some excellent arguments against those things because they take the secular science and demonstrate how it fits our model better than yours. The beauty of our arguments is that we have ammunition that is straight out of NAS, PLOS, and Nature that is peer reviewed. This is why I spent so much time the last few weeks trying to convince a group of men that reality fits the Bible and how important it is to demonstrate that.

Arch Bishop Ussher came up with an idea that the world was created in 6 literal days. Then Ken Ham and Kent Hovind picked up on that and tried to say that scientists were liars and that all of science is a sham that we know not what. They led people to believe that the only way to understand Genesis 1 was through the eyes and understanding of this one man. It has led many people to believe that the Bible contains errors when that is so completely false. The Bible contains more than one creation account. When you put them all together, they do not spell 6 twenty-four hour days. They also show that God allowed animals to die and then created again and replenished the earth. But the only way that we could know that was through science. Would it surprise you that our family takes a lot of flack over trying to teach this? It is very hard to understand because so many foundational truths have been built on this idea that God created the Earth in 6 literal days.

I will give you one example. Recently, there was an RNA experiment where brilliant beyond brilliant scientists were able to develop self replicating RNA in the lab. This experiment was done meticulously and needed several complicated steps to achieve the goal. What this absolutely proved was that this could not have happened under the hostile initial conditions of the earth and there are still several other parameters necessary for this to have formed. One needs DNA, messenger RNA, ribosomes and proteins to build cells. The cell cannot replicate or build new proteins without these things. The evidence fits out model that God's hand is evident in nature. In fact, abiogenesis is becoming such an obvious dead end that scientists are trying to explain the same things through panspermia and also reaching a dead end.

See, in order to do this scientifically, we have to have a model. Then as the evidence comes in, we see if it fits our model. That is what RTB did. They built a model of expectations based on the Bible and then observed the evidence to see if it didn't fit the model. They also are able to explain this stuff in ways that people can understand. IOW, they interpret the scientific language.

I don't take anyone's word for anything anymore. I look it up for myself.

Also, I believe the book you are referring to is called Heather Has Two Mommies. It's a great book and it was in the classroom of many of the preschool children I taught. In one situation, it really helped explain to the other kids why one of our students had 2 mothers. Some of the children found it odd, but that book was an excellent teaching tool about how not every family is just like yous and how we should not discriminate against others because their families are different than ours. Do not start harping on how that book teaches a 'homosexual agenda'. It does not. It teaches exactly what I said it does.

God help us. That is really sick, Leigh. You're a liar. It does support and promote the homosexual agenda by teaching children not to question perversion. This is why I home educated my children. You draw the line at perversion. I draw the line at one woman and one man in a marriage relationship.

Do you ever READ any books that counter your own arguments or do you only read things that support what you already think so that you can gluttonously feed that confirmation bias of yours?

I watch secular science shows trying to be alert for facts that fit the model of creation in the Bible but also just enjoying the science. I read a lot of science on nursing. I am a voracious reader. I just finished a novel because my dyslexic daughter just finished all four in the series. I wanted to be able to discuss the book with her intelligently because she wanted to discuss it. I wanted to encourage her to be able to comprehend what she read. Can you guess what books I'm talking about? I have read several how-to books on computers to help me to understand the dynamics of the programs I use. I am very good at using a computer because of that. I read constantly. I probably read too much but I love to read and write.

Vera

Weemaryanne said...

"...These folks put babies on hot fiery statues and played drums as loud as they could to drown out the screams...."

And we know this because the people who mass-murdered them told us so.

That's what's known as a questionable source.

*F*A*I*L*

Weemaryanne said...

"...I watch secular science shows trying to be alert for facts that fit the model of creation in the Bible..."

And you dare to accuse atheists of forcing the evidence to fit OUR preconceptions.

*F*A*I*L*

Weemaryanne said...

Repeated question:

If atheists control the public schools, then how did this guy get away with BRANDING CROSSES ON HIS STUDENTS?

http://bluecollarscientist.com/2008/05/12/john-freshwater-update/

Originally asked April 4, 2009 9:38 AM

verandoug said...

Leigh

The answer to the abortion 'problem' is that people need to take responsibility for their actions and use freaking birth control.

The answer to the abortion problem is that grown men need to stop raping children so we don't have 9 year olds who need abortions. How about men stop raping in general? You want to hold women accountable for getting an abortion, but you never say a word about men and their behaviors.

Also, causing women to be killed by seeking unsafe abortions is not the answer to the abortion problem but it is what you advocate by wanting abortion outlawed.


I agree. I also would like to see stricter regulations for the Internet where much of this junk is born through pornography. Of all the millions of abortions done each year, how many do you suppose are 9 yo rape victims?

Vera

Weemaryanne said...

"....Of all the millions of abortions done each year, how many do you suppose are 9 yo rape victims?"

You blithering sanctimonious idiot, don't you know that ONE would be too many?

verandoug said...

Leigh

I've already answered this in my previous comment, but I wanted to be sure you didn't think you were getting a free pass on this one.

Christians brought slaves here from Africa and treated them horrifically, using the bible to justify their actions. Do NOT say they didn't use the bible to do so, because I happen to know of at least one instance personally where it did happen. When I have more time and if you are interested, I'll go into it.

Anyway, I've seen your take on biblical slavery before. You think it was some nice, posh job like bagging groceries. You think those slaves were treated with the utmost respect and that it was just another job to them. You need to believe that and have accepted the brainwashing required to believe that because otherwise you have to admit that your god allowed the horrific act of slavery to happen and did nothing about it, condoned it even.


People condone sin all the time and try to use the Bible as their source. Shoot. There are gay churches. How ridiculous can you get??!! And they use the Bible to promote their sin. Idiots. There are people who get drunk all the time and use Jesus turning water into wine as an excuse even though the Bible says clearly that no drunkard is getting in.

You really need to read the article I sent to you. It demonstrates that the Bible did not condone slavery but set up humane laws to govern it. I don't care what so called Christians say or do, if they don't have any fruit, they're not Christians. Helloooo

1 Timothy 1:9-11 says, "Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

The word menstealers there is the Greek word andrapodistēs

It means:
1) a slave-dealer, kidnapper, man-stealer
a) of one who unjustly reduces free men to slavery
b) of one who steals the slaves of others and sells them

There is a Bible online with a lexicon. blueletterbible.org. You look up the verse and then click the C next to it and it will bring up the original text. You can click on any word to see its Greek or Hebrew counterpart and find the definition.

The point here is that God put this wicked evil practice right up there with whoremongering.

Vera

verandoug said...

I hate to pop your bubble Vera, but I have a 19 year old son and a 19 year old daughter. They are excellent kids, son graduated high school early and already started college at doing very well, daughter getting ready to graduate with honors. Neither have ever been in trouble except for accidentally letting the neighbors dogs out once when they were both much younger. They were not raised in a church, neither believe in any gods or deities and they have a fantastic sense of right and wrong. I'm sorry that your 'I told ya so' failed so miserably.

Good for you. No matter how good you think they are, it isn't good enough. You still fall short of the glory of God. Atheists have a tendency to live more moral lives than Christians at times. Some supposed Christians think they can sin every day and at the end of the day be forgiven. That isn't how it works. We teach that atheists live moral lives and we teach that their goodness isn't what gets them into heaven.

I probalby asked you this already, but do they fornicate? Because see, if one of my children were fornicating, I would not consider that a success.

All but one of my children are doing great. But even he is doing fine now thanks to the chastening of the Lord. My oldest is married and lives in Ohio. She and her husband are successful for a young married couple. He works for AT&T. They go to the youth prison there every week. She works in an assisted living facility and hopes to become a physical therapist one day. But more than that, she wants to have a family and raise her own children. My second born is a straight A student in college. He was telling me that other day how horrible it was because he came into class and sat in the front row. He turned around and everyone else was at the back of the room with seven seats between him and the rest of the class. He was the only one in the front. The other young people give him a hard time of it for doing well. There is at least a 40 point spread between his grades in math and the average ps student. My 4th born is dyslexic as I said but has taken great strides to overcome her handicap. She is the pretty one on the left in the pic on my web site. She is taking a life guard class this week, which has freed me up a bunch. My fifth born is just an umpth away from making Junior Olympic times in swimming freestyle. He is a great person. My baby is a sweetheart. She is on the swim team too. My daughter and her friends are taking a class at church on remaining faithful to the one they will marry and faithful to God. I thought that was neat. My third born was my best kid until he started hanging around with our ps neighbors. After so much heartache, he has finally come to his senses and I thank God for that. He hates the neighbors now. We are the only family for miles around with an intact husband and wife that have good wholesome children, which makes us the odd man out. I think my 3rd born will rival my other children in serving the Lord.

Now before you go on the "Where is there father?" routine, he was killed before they were teenagers and I've raised them on my own.

I am terribly sorry that happened to you. It must have been hard.

Uh...no. this has already been addressed by other posters here, but your god does not get to do one thing and tell others to do another. There is either a standard or there isn't and if your god fails to follow it, yet tells others to, then he is a lying hypocrite just like you are.

You are missing the point here as usual. When God kills, it is for the protection of everyone and the good of everyone in the same way that a police officer kills. When you watch a cop show, are you horrified when a really bad guy gets killed? How would you feel if there were 30,000 men just like Charles Manson? Do you charge the cop with manslaughter and judge him in error? The children that God had killed went to heaven. Had they lived, they would have surely grown up like their parents. It only seems horrible when you take heaven out of the equation. At some point, they are going to die anyway. Death is inevitable. Life begins after that point because wherever you end up after death is where you will spend eternity. So God took them for mercy's sake probably because of how tormented they were. God is the ONLY one that can make that decision. Man is incapable of making a righteous choice by killing. This practice no longer applies to this dispensation of grace because Jesus said that the angels will separate the wheat from the tares on the last day. Our job is to lead them to Christ whether they receive it or not.

I think few people recognize what life would be like in such a culture. We have babies and we throw a shower and it is a happy time. But what kind of mothering could there be knowing that your child might end up on the barbecue? How do you think you would feel after 9 months of pregnancy if one of your sweet precious babies had ended up being the sacrifice for the day? There was no mercy for these people and because of that, the children were probably psychotic trying to cope with the evil wicked practices of their society and parents. It was pure overwhelming torture. God didn't want His people to learn their ways and He didn't want these people murdering all the good people. So He wiped them out. If the children had lived, they would have been slaves. So in His mercy, He ordered them to be killed so that they would be in heaven with Him. There were probably Israelites that did not inherit the kingdom where these children did. Let that one sink in? I'm not wholly convinced about Solomon. He had a great deal of wisdom but he blew it by becoming an idolator. I hope he had a death bed conversion or something but I don't know that. What an irony that these children would go to heaven but if Solomon did get in, he would probably not be on the top wrung of the ladder. He lived a very luxurious life. These children didn't. Is it starting to sink in now that these judgments are what counts, not what goes on in terms of a great life or not.

Any of your other claims in that paragraph are simply nonsense to cover up for the fact that your magic book proves that the star of the show is a murderer.

The Star of the show is terrifying in His wrath and when I say terrifying, I mean terrifying. He hates sin. He hates all workers of iniquity who would do these wicked evil things.

First trimester abortions are not a criminal act and you are ignoring the fact that I have said that abortions are over used as a form of birth control. I have no idea what 'on the grounds of the obscure means'. You are attempting here to present a strawman argument against me, but you can't even do that properly.

Were you ever a baby in its first trimester? That was you at one time. That was your two precious children at one point. Can you imagine one of them not being here? You are created in the image of God and precious to Him.

And who ever said that embryos are just blobs of tissue? I didn't.

If you can murder an innocent baby at its weakest point, you must consider them non-life or blobs of tissue.

I do not believe in 'murdering children' (another attempt at a strawman on your part. I do not consider first trimester abortions murder.

Your judgment is in error. Abortion and murder no matter what stage of development is synonymous.

And yes, YOU have to make a decision, Vera. Which is better? Masses of women dying from infection due to dirty abortions or those women living? No matter whether you have had a safe abortion or the woman has died of sepsis, a life has still ended. All you have done is chosen a later date.


How about a virtuous society where abstinence till marriage is upheld and preserved and where pornography is outlawed? How about strict rules and penalties against abortionists, rapists, and pornographers? How about a society that helps those who become pregnant but have little money? We have such an abundance in this country. We could share our resources and help each other out.

What you do is ignore 99% of what I type and attack with logical fallacies and unfounded speculation the 1% you bother to read. I don't mind, though. You don't have anything of substance to back up any of your claims anyway, as you have repeatedly shown.

Well surely not today, my friend. 5 hours later, I have completely read everything you wrote and replied to each point.

Many blessings. May you find your way back home, Leigh!

In His Love,
Vera

Weemaryanne said...

"....Abortion and murder no matter what stage of development is synonymous. ...."

Then please explain miscarriages.

You know: miscarriages.

- Natural, spontaneous abortions,
- that usually occur in the first trimester,
- and often occur so early that the woman may not even be aware that she's pregnant.

Furthermore, they
- often happen with little or no warning,
- to women in poor health, and to women who have no health problems at all, and
- depending on which medical authority you choose to believe, may account for up to 20% of all terminated pregnancies.

By your logic, this would mean that there are a lot of missing people, Vera. Why didn't your imaginary friend like those people enough to let them live?

Weemaryanne said...

"....We teach that atheists live moral lives...."

Who's "we"? I don't recall your saying that, and I'm reasonably certain that Ray Comfort would drink a pitcher of warm spit before he'd say anything like that.*

So please, point me toward this interesting teaching. Chapter and verse, por favor.

(*Yeah-yeah-yeah-yeah, I remember Comquat's condescending post about the guy who presented Penn Jillette with a bible and how nice Jillette was about accepting it. Ray said 'wow, atheists can be nice sometimes, imagine that.' He did not say that Penn Jillette - a married man with two young children and a steady job - is living a moral life.)

verandoug said...

IC

um well, all animals are is a group of cells surrounded by a body to do it's whim. To eat and breathe and replicate. Those cells are chemicals that bond to each other. There has been quite a bit of testing with this hypothesis and so far tests agree that this is how the first DNA strand formed. No I might believe that God helped that along, maybe even mixed the chemicals on purpose, but I don't think he did it to create "us". I don't think we're Gods "special" creatures who can win his favor.

I hate to be redundant but did you see the link I sent Leigh with the inner workings of a single cell? That is how complicated life is just at the cellular level. We used to think it was no big deal until we got a closer look.

Vera

Weemaryanne said...

"....That is how complicated life is just at the cellular level...."

Complexity doesn't mean unexplainability.

"...We used to think it was no big deal until we got a closer look....."

Once again, who's "we"? And how long ago was "used to"? And:

What
Have
You
Got
To
Back
Up
This
Claim?

Citations, please.

Speaking for myself, I've never considered that the complex functions of living processes was "no big deal." Quite the opposite. But I repeat: Yeah, it's complex. No, it's not miraculous.

Weemaryanne said...

"....I hate to be redundant...."

Take my word for it, V: Redundancy is the least of your problems.

Leigh said...

Vera,


I briefly read some of your responses and it is crystal clear that you are not worth replying to anymore. You are now asking about the sex lives of my adult children and saying that the 'devil' is my father. Things like this don't even warrant responses.

Also, calling someone an idiot is not an ad hominem. You are misusing even the very easiest of logical fallacies to understand. Here, I'm going to leave you with something else you will slaughter:

http://plover.net/~bonds/adhominem.html

You'll misquote and misunderstand everything that is written there, but hey, you do that to everything else people say.

As far as I'm concerned, you showed your ignorance in flying colors here when you completely ignored anything I had to say about my family and then came back with the garbage about how I couldn't possibly be a mother ,ect. You so completely discredited yourself as to make it impossible to take anything you say seriously.

Also, I'm not going to go back and read the replies you've posted in completion, because you couldn't be bothered to offer me the same courtesy until you realized that you had shoved your foot so far down your throat that there was no retrieving it.

The record here stands, Vera. You still make claims, even today, for which you offer no evidence (the evolution reply, you once again claimed volumes of evidence, but offered nothing) and you have shown that you are incapable of critical thought and logic.

You can come back with whatever reply you want, and I'm sure you will. Please continue to make yourself look like a complete and utter fool and have fun with that.

Kerri Love said...

Their success was paramount for the solution of bringing HIMSELF into the world

Why only them? It’s not like they were sinless good people so why only that bloodline? Why couldn’t God have chosen more then just that one bloodline. And why only in that part of the world? We know there were lots of people all over the place, surely there was more then just one bloodline worth talking to.


I don't think so because it is really not God. It is the devil who deceives the nations.

But if these people are worshiping your God but call him Allah, then it should be capitalized right? I'm not talking about Islam, I'm talking about bible believing Christianity being worshiped in another language where God=Allah

The conditions of the earth were different at various times. The sun's luminosity has changed and the O2 content has changed several times over. Each animal that was created was perfectly suited to the time in which it lived.

So why did God not create the world perfect? No animal I know of was created ‘perfectly suited’ so that theory doesn’t fit at all. The environment changed and the animals had to evolve or die. Why would God create an animal that was unable to survive these changes? The animals that evolved successfully lived and when the environment changed again, they had to change again. Where is the ‘creation’ in that?

That is interesting about the grizzly and the polar bear. I didn't know that. Is there documentation of this? I think it is astounding how God has created things that can interbreed like that. It explains why we see varieties of the same species.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/05/bear-hybrid-photo.html

It is very interesting, but also sad since the polar bear will probably go extinct if the climate keeps changing. We don’t know how many of these hybrid bears will be born so they might only be a blip due to the Grizzlys entering Polar bear territory. We can only hope that some part of the Polar Bear will live on in this hybrid but I don’t hold my breath.


Sorry CH I think Igot your name mixed up with Weemaryanne

verandoug said...

Their success was paramount for the solution of bringing HIMSELF into the world

Why only them? It’s not like they were sinless good people so why only that bloodline? Why couldn’t God have chosen more then just that one bloodline. And why only in that part of the world? We know there were lots of people all over the place, surely there was more then just one bloodline worth talking to.


For obvious reasons because of the Law, the message came through the Jews. They were given the oracles of God and the baby born had to come through a woman. If you look closely though at the lineage that was passed down, there were many intermarriages involved and several other races. Since we are all connected anyway, technically we are all related.


I don't think so because it is really not God. It is the devil who deceives the nations.

But if these people are worshiping your God but call him Allah, then it should be capitalized right? I'm not talking about Islam, I'm talking about bible believing Christianity being worshiped in another language where God=Allah


The Christians who are converted muslims that I talk to do not worship nor call God "allah." However, just like these things are not always universal in every single culture and islam entails such a large area of population, you might be right that some muslim out there still calls God allah. It would however, be a young believer's mistake.

The conditions of the earth were different at various times. The sun's luminosity has changed and the O2 content has changed several times over. Each animal that was created was perfectly suited to the time in which it lived.

So why did God not create the world perfect? No animal I know of was created ‘perfectly suited’ so that theory doesn’t fit at all. The environment changed and the animals had to evolve or die. Why would God create an animal that was unable to survive these changes? The animals that evolved successfully lived and when the environment changed again, they had to change again. Where is the ‘creation’ in that?


There are several reasons that seem to apply.
1. So that His invisible attributes would be clearly seen.
2. To create a world totally self sustaining through free will choice where supernatural power is limited to Him and Him alone.
3. It is testable. The supernatural is not testable.

Romans 8:19-22 "For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of Him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

That is interesting about the grizzly and the polar bear. I didn't know that. Is there documentation of this? I think it is astounding how God has created things that can interbreed like that. It explains why we see varieties of the same species.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/05/bear-hybrid-photo.html


Neat. Why did they kill it? -sigh- I hope it was for eating purposes.

It is very interesting, but also sad since the polar bear will probably go extinct if the climate keeps changing. We don’t know how many of these hybrid bears will be born so they might only be a blip due to the Grizzlys entering Polar bear territory. We can only hope that some part of the Polar Bear will live on in this hybrid but I don’t hold my breath.

99% of all animals that have ever lived have gone extinct. One theory that Dr. Ross came up with on the hominids was that wherever they were, the animals did not go extinct as quickly after mankind was created. Man seems to have something to do with a high extinction rate. Do you think it might be from shooting them for no good reason? :-)

Vera

verandoug said...

Weemaryanne

If you are looking for an article that refutes microevolution, you won't find that. But the same mechanisms cannot support the biodiversity we see and even Richard Dawkins apparently had to admit that.

See http://verandoug.blogspot.com/2008/05/jewish-or-bible-value-of-pi.html for an article on the Pi argument, which is moot since they forgot that the rim was a handbreadth. boo hoo.

Vera

verandoug said...

Weemaryanne

And no, neither Vera nor anyone else should be scared of the universeWhy should anyone be afraid of what God has created?
Vera

verandoug said...

Weemaryanne

If "the best commentary on the Bible is the Bible," then -- and please note I'm following your logic here -- then the best commentary on The Origin of Species would be . . .

Taaah-daaaah! -- The Origin of Species!!!!.
Excellent!!! That's what I say too. So that when Darwin says this

In a letter to Joseph Dalton Hooker on February 1, 1871,[12] Charles Darwin addressed the question, suggesting that the original spark of life may have begun in a "warm little pond, with all sorts of ammonia and phosphoric salts, lights, heat, electricity, etc. present, so that a protein compound was chemically formed ready to undergo still more complex changes". He went on to explain that "at the present day such matter would be instantly devoured or absorbed, which would not have been the case before living creatures were formed."[13] In other words, the presence of life itself makes the search for the origin of life dependent on the sterile conditions of the laboratory.in a personal letter, we can see that he had in mind that the origin of species began when life first came to be and speculated on that. Thus there is a link between abiogenesis and the ToE and since abiogenesis is being refuted through science, the atheists are trying wildly to separate the two. I say that anything Darwin says is a commentary on what Darwin says. Amen. Preach it, sister!

Vera

verandoug said...

Okay, you're not qualified to judge someone who's been dead for sixty years. But you're eminently qualified to judge millions of people now living whom you've never met or can barely claim acquaintance with. Like me.
That's because I know a lot about you. You have a lot more knowledge about God than Anne Frank did. . . . perhaps. Actually, we don't know that. We have no idea how much she knew or was shared with. Did someone share the gospel with her? See, I don't know that information. There were Christians in those concentration camps and there is a possibility that someone shared their love of Jesus with her. I hope so.

One Scripture I find interesting is the story of Lazarus and the rich man. Lazarus ended up in heaven because he suffered so much in this world. The Bible says that God's judgments are unsearchable. But see, you aren't Lazarus or Anne Frank. You are someone who knew God once and decided to deny Him. That is a whole nother story.

Vera

verandoug said...

Weemaryanne

If atheists control the public schools, then how did this guy get away with BRANDING CROSSES ON HIS STUDENTS?

http://bluecollarscientist.com/2008/05/12/john-freshwater-update/
A) You know and I know that this was not sanctioned by any ps. This was some nut acting on his own volition.
B) God expressly gives his opinion on tattoos in the Law by forbidding them

Lev. 19:28 " 'Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the LORD.Plus, this man is like thousands of others who do not know God, weemaryanne. The mark of being a Christian is one who is obedient to God. Jesus said, "If you love me, keep my commandments."

There was a man recently more intense than this story. I am sure you have heard of him. His name is Todd Bentley. Doug and I took one look at him with all his piercing and tattoos and we just knew he was going to do something to blaspheme God. I mean I can see them coming anymore a mile away. They are 99 shades of compromise. Sure enough, after getting the attention of everyone, he leaves his wife for another woman. This man is no more a Christian than the man in the moon. I refuse to be one of these ridiculous icons of Christianity and be in everyone's spotlight. I would rather sit in the ditch with you and try to help you get out of it.

Vera

verandoug said...

DNA (to name just one) provides excellent support for the theory of evolution.I answered this in a new blog entry.
Vera

verandoug said...

Weemaryanne

"...Would you say mocking and scorning your Creator God and His ways a point of pride?..."

No, because I've never mocked an imaginary being. (Wouldn't know how.) Wake up, Vera: You are the one that I'm mocking.

Oh, but you give yourself an out: My imaginary friend won't reveal himself to anyone who thinks/says/laughs that he's imaginary.

How very convenient for you.
There is plenty of proof for God in your conscience and in the things that are made. That is why are without excuse.

The mocking and scorning is not of me but the One who sent me to preach the gospel to everyone. In this case, it is you. God resists the proud.

You are blind and you need to cry out to God to open your eyes because of what is at stake. But see, you are too proud to do that. You are too proud to get on your knees with tears in your eyes and weep to God begging Him to show you who He is.

Vera

verandoug said...

Weemaryanne

It does not surprise me, Vera, that you're unfamiliar with the history of Periclean Athens or with the methods used by the Spartans to train their army.I was speaking strictly of America whose roots are based on Christian teaching. Where are the Spartans today? What happened to those people? Were they not annihilated. What about Sodom?

It does not surprise me that you're unaware of a man called Alan Turing. He was the mathematical genius responsible for the Enigma codebreaking machine which helped the Allies to defeat the Nazis. He was harassed into suicide by British intelligence agents, not because he had committed any crime, but because he was gay.King Solomon was one of the most brilliant men that ever lived but he let his sex life get the best of him and ended his life an idolator. He wrote the book of Proverbs. Brilliance does not get you into heaven. Many brilliant men, Einstein too, were whoremongers, adulterers and homosexuals. That is why God says, "Claiming to be wise, they became fools." Our intelligence helps others, but it can become a point of pride.

It DOES surprise me, though, that you've apparently forgotten about King David's bestest friend in his youth: a young man named Jonathan. The Old Testament gets pretty specific about how close these young men were, and also about how the relationship angered Jonathan's father.I am so glad you brought up this argument. How stupid, Weemaryanne. Do you and the perpetrators of this skewed report ever even read the text to see what it says? They were not lovers but the best of friends. They were not gay. In those days, that was unthinkable. They killed homosexuals. David definitely like the girls, there is no question. Jonathan and David were like brothers but bound together, which is why David gave a great deal of favor to Jonathan's son, Mephibosheth. He was lame because the nurse that was fleeing with him fell. David was very kind to Jonathan's son all the days of his life. He gave him land and made sure he was taken care of. It is so stupid to think that every time someone loves another person that it involves sex. It just goes to show you the gutter mentality of some people.

Hmm. I'm thinking that no father would be angry that his son has a best friend. A certain type of father, however, might be angry that his son has a homosexual lover.His father was angry because David was going to be king after Samuel anointed him king and Saul's lineage for the throne would end. He was trying to preserve his line for the kingship. So he kept trying to kill David, which started long before this friendship with Jonathan. David kept trying to do the things that would make Saul happy but nothing would make Saul happy except to see him dead and his son Jonathan on the throne.

Vera

Weemaryanne said...

Siiiiiiighhhhhh. No, Vera, I don't "know more about God than Anne Frank." I don't know a blankety blank thing about your imaginary friend.

I DO NOT BELIEVE IN ANY IMAGINARY FRIEND TO BEGIN WITH.

HOW MANY TIMES MUST I REPEAT IT.

Weemaryanne said...

Re John Freshwater, he's a Christian nut.

A very important distinction.

You claimed that atheists control the public school system. Don't try to squirm out of that by calling this guy "just some nut." If atheists are in control, then things like this DO NOT HAPPEN.

But it did happen. So how do you account for that?

.............
Come to think of it:

If your imaginary friend is in control, kids don't get embarrassed in school because they believed what they were taught by, say, Answers in Genesis, and their schoolmates laughed at them. Nevertheless, in the past you've claimed that such humiliations do occur. You didn't mention how you knew it. You didn't try to make any excuse for your imaginary friend not protecting those kids from such an unnecessary humiliation. I wonder why.

Weemaryanne said...

I'm not crying out to your imaginary friend because it ain't there. I'd only be talking to myself.

verandoug said...

IC

I've seen some shows on Jonestown. Hard to believe anyone would go through with the Kool-Aid trick. Even more so when suicide is a sin. Right and no Christian would be led of the Spirit of follow such a nut.

Vera

verandoug said...

CH

Why Vera--Did you delete my latest comment to you? I would let you know if I deleted something. Can you repost?
Vera

verandoug said...

So with that being true, should you not capitalize the word for God even if it's in a different language? Abraham did not call God allah. He called him Elohim, Jehovah, Yaweh or just Hashem - the Name. They so honored God that they wouldn't even dare say His name.

The god of islam is not God Almighty, the Creator. He is a phony baloney angel of light -satan, who has deceived these nations with violence. The people in islamic nations that give their lives to Jesus also surrender their lives to death.

See persecution.org.

Vera

Weemaryanne said...

1 Samuel 30:

Then Saul's anger was kindled against Jonathan, and he said unto him, Thou son of the perverse rebellious woman, do not I know that thou hast chosen the son of Jesse to thine own confusion, and unto the confusion of thy mother's nakedness?I'm pretty sure that no man talks to his son that way unless he's accusing him of being gay.

Sorry, V. But not very.

verandoug said...

CH

Do you think Southern Baptists--as a denomination--are Christians, Vera? I believe anyone who is filled with the Spirit of God set free from sin is a Christian. Christ is not divided. Some of the teaching in the Baptist Church leads people away from this. Thus there are some Baptists (and we have met them out on the streets) who are not getting in. Hating someone without a cause, which would definitely include prejudice, is one sin that God will not allow to pollute heaven.

Because if you do, let me ask you: Why do you think they became SOUTHERN Baptists?Hmmm, could that be because they live in the South? I do not like black church vs. white church. Neither is from God.

It's true that Christians were active in the abolition movement. It's also true that Christians were active in the vile practice of slavery also. It was Christians that brought that disgusting practice to America in the first place. See, I am trying to get you to see that anyone that calls themselves a Christian and is willfully sinning is not a Christian. Now, some real Christians owned slaves. They were instructed in Scripture to treat them with kindness. I personally think that owning another person is horrific. But I don't live in that day and time and so it is easy for me to judge. I have the luxury of a washer and dryer that does my clothes in an hour. I have the luxury of a dishwasher that sterilizes my dishes. I have computers. I have a toilet. i have a telephone. I have a refrigerator. I have running water in my house with a hot water heater. I can go to Target and get myself a decent outfit without having to sew it myself. In fact, sewing something is a lot more expensive than having a nice Chinese lady make it for me for a pittance. All of these things are luxuries that help me to get through the chores of life in a breeze. I could make myself live in a more uncivilized way if I had to. But I know that if that day were to come, people would force other people to do those things for them again if they think they can get away with it because rich people don't like to do their own laundry. I was visiting away from home a while back and was in a laundromat. There was a lady there dropping off her week's worth of laundry. I forget how we got to talking but she told me that she refused to do her own laundry and has never done it - EVER. I bout fell over on the spot. She pays someone else a small fee to do her laundry each week. I mean, I couldn't imagine anyone doing that in these days and times and yet here was someone who thought it beneath her to do her own laundry. Se la vi.

Vera

Weemaryanne said...

I'm not sitting in a ditch and you've been trying to convert me for -- how long now?

*F*A*I*L*

Kerri Love said...

For obvious reasons because of the Law, the message came through the Jews.

I’m sorry, what Law?

It would however, be a young believer's mistake.It would be a mistake to talk to God in his own language? That doesn’t make sense. I’m not talking about Muslim Americans.

1. So that His invisible attributes would be clearly seen.If his attributes are invisible, how can they be CLEARLY seen.

For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.That doesn’t make sense because things are still groanething and travailething in pain. Maybe I don’t understand what is being said here.

Do you think it might be from shooting them for no good reason?It seems that sin was only done by the white men :P and guns are still relatively new so I don’t know shooting them fits. It wouldn’t surprise me if Man had that kind of effect.

verandoug said...

For obvious reasons because of the Law, the message came through the Jews.

I’m sorry, what Law?
Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy. This is referred to as the Pentateuch. In the Law are civil laws, ceremonial laws, and moral laws. The Ten commandments were considered the ten most important Laws.

It would however, be a young believer's mistake.It would be a mistake to talk to God in his own language? That doesn’t make sense. I’m not talking about Muslim Americans.I am speaking of not realizing what the name of God is. A Greek that was saved might think God Almighty's name is zeus until someone corrects him. Actually, one of the things that was totally cool that we did in home school was to ask true and false questions to see what our children believed to be true. There wasn't a right or wrong to it but it made you think and it forced us to seek out the Bible about what it had to say on that subject. We come to Christianity with all sorts of preconceived ideas. For example, the tattoo issue.

1. So that His invisible attributes would be clearly seen.If his attributes are invisible, how can they be CLEARLY seen. Such an excellent question. You have a personality. Right? If you could paint who you are in a picture, we could gather many things about you. God has so many character qualities. He can be gentle and kind and loving. But He can also be terrifying. He is glorious. He is majestic. This is just to name a few attributes. I mean I could exhaust my list because each animal and each piece of creation demonstrates another part of who He is. I can think of something in nature that shows each of those qualities. A kitten, t-rex. a beautiful sunset, the eagle or the lion. There are attributes of ingenuity and creativity. There are attributes of logic. I could talk your ear off on that one.

That doesn’t make sense because things are still groanething and travailething in pain. Maybe I don’t understand what is being said here.Just that creation has been suffering since the beginning. It was necessary to build this world this way to promote the greatest amount of freewill choice and so that man could come to Him strictly without physically being with Him. In that way, it is never a forced issue.

Do you think it might be from shooting them for no good reason?It seems that sin was only done by the white men :P and guns are still relatively new so I don’t know shooting them fits. It wouldn’t surprise me if Man had that kind of effect.
Spears too. Men have created weapons for killing since they show up in the fossil record. I saw this one documentary on PBS where these ancient men devised a very clever weapon that propelled their spear an extra 60 feet. It was very educational. The anthropologist said that these men had the same brain capacity that we do just not the knowledge base.

Vera

verandoug said...

And we know this because the people who mass-murdered them told us so.I found this on wikipedia under molech.

Eissfeldt's theory: a type of sacrifice
In 1921 Otto Eissfeldt, excavating in Carthage, discovered inscriptions with the word MLK, which in the context meant neither "king" nor the name of any god. He concluded that it was instead a term for a particular kind of sacrifice, one which at least in some cases involved human sacrifice. A relief was found showing a priest holding a child. Also uncovered was a sanctuary to the goddess Tanit comprising a cemetery with thousands of burned bodies of animals and of human infants, dating from the 8th century BC down to the destruction of Carthage in 146 BC. Eissfeldt identified the site as a tophet, using a Hebrew word of previously unknown meaning connected to the burning in some Biblical passages. Most of the children's bodies appeared to be those of newborns, but some were older, up to about six years of age.
Eissfeldt further concluded that the Hebrew writings were not talking about the god Moloch at all, but about the molk or mulk sacrifice, that the abomination was not in worshiping the god Molech who demanded children be sacrificed to him, but in the practice of sacrificing human children as a molk. Hebrews were strongly opposed to sacrificing first-born children as a molk to Yahweh himself. The relevant Scriptural passages depict Yahweh condemning Hebrews sacrificing their first-borns; those who did were stoned to death, and those who witnessed but did not prevent the sacrifice were excommunicated.[6]
Similar "tophets" have since been found at Carthage and other places in North Africa, and in Sardinia, Malta, Sicily . In late 1990 a possible tophet consisting of cinerary urns containing bones and ashes and votive objects was retrieved from ransacking on the mainland just outside of Tyre in the Phoenician homeland. [7]
Further discussion of Eissfeldt's theories unfolded.
I don't agree with his conclusion on Mollech being a false god. But the point is that he found evidence to support the text.

Vera

verandoug said...

And you dare to accuse atheists of forcing the evidence to fit OUR preconceptions.We build a model and show where our model fits the evidence. That is all. Your group, however, goes further than that by assuming many things where there is no absolute proof trying to brainwash people into believing there is no God. I already know that God is real, weemaryanne. I know Him. He knows me. I love Him. He loves me. I think once upon a time, you loved Him too.

Vera

verandoug said...

If atheists control the public schools, then how did this guy get away with BRANDING CROSSES ON HIS STUDENTS?The key word there is "get away with." And once again, I will tell you that this is a wolf in sheep's clothing. You will know them by their fruits, weemaryanne. You need to learn to be a little more discerning.

Vera

verandoug said...

You blithering sanctimonious idiot, don't you know that ONE would be too many?Same to ya. :-) You can't use these obscure ridiculous scenarios to support the murder of innocent children because you want the playing field to be even so that a woman can walk away from a cheap date the same as the guy because that is what abortion is. Wake up and smell the coffee!!

Vera

verandoug said...

Weemaryanne,

You know why you always miss the point of these arguments? It's because of this. It looks like a mathematical equation.

Baby + death = unfairBut see you forget one little part of the equation.

Baby + death + heaven = the best

Any child that dies goes to heaven because they die innocent. So for them, it is the best situation possible. There is no chance of them going to hell - AT ALL! They are with God for eternity enjoying heaven and they got to skip the 80 years of torture here where they could have very well offended a Holy God and by their own freewill choice ended up in hell's fire. Good for them.

In anticipation of your next question, you are not God. So you are not free to murder that child. It isn't up to you to make that choice. Only God is able to do that.

In anticipation of the next question after that, God has taken many children from this earth. I had five miscarriages in my life and I know them each by name because I named them and they are all there with Him. Praise God!

Vera

verandoug said...

Weemaryanne

Who's "we"? I don't recall your saying that, and I'm reasonably certain that Ray Comfort would drink a pitcher of warm spit before he'd say anything like that.*I associate with a group of street preachers who are not necessarily associated with Ray Comfort. Of those street preachers, Doug and I are probably on the same page with about 3 of them on the age of the earth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlevb0Viegw&feature=channel_page

This dialogue will demonstrate what we teach.

Romans 2:14 is a great verse to share this with you. As you are reading this, keep in mind that a Gentile was an absolute heathen.

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.I think one of the reasons we see such a drastic difference between atheists and Christians today is because stupid, stupid Christians falsely believe that the message is that they now have a free ticket to sin. What a travesty! You must be pardoned and set free from sin by His power.

Vera

Weemaryanne said...

My discernment tells me that any guy who brands a cross on a kid's arm is, among other things:

1) Certainly Christian, at least in his own mind;

2) Abusive and unfit for teaching by any standards; and

3) Possibly - though not necessarily - clinically insane.

Clearly these characteristics are not mutually exclusive. But one thing John Freshwater is NOT, is an atheist.

And you know something, Vera? It's much too easy for you to sniff and mutter "Not a Troo Christian." You've passed that judgement on men as different as President George W. Bush and President Barack Obama. I'm beginning to wonder who counts as a Real Troo Christian in your allegedly Christian nation.

Oh, but it's not a Christian nation, because the atheists have control of it.

Or, no, wait, they only control the public school system.

But they don't have enough control to prevent a teacher from branding crosses on kids, in broad daylight, more than once. So, they're not really in control after all, now are they?

Weemaryanne said...

"....But the point is that he found evidence to support the text."

::facepalm::

ONE.
MORE.
TIME.

Any scientist worthy of the name does not look for evidence to support a prior conclusion or statement.

It's the other way around: You start with the evidence and figure out what it means. Often you can't figure it out completely, like Darwin who knew there had to be a mechanism driving the process of evolution but was unable to find it himself because he couldn't get his hands on an electron microscope. Incompleteness doesn't make a theory wrong, merely incomplete.

But don't take my word for it. Listen to Steven J, for a change. He has patiently provided excellent answers to all your halfbaked objections - answers which you choose to ignore just as you ignored Maragon when she attempted to educate you.

----------------
As for your silliness about how dead babies get expressed to La-La-Land - suuuure they do. And they get to play forever with fuzzy kittens and baby unicorns on clouds made of cotton candy and happiness. You've convinced me!

/eyeroll

Weemaryanne said...

Then there's the recent case of a California Sunday school teacher who kidnapped, raped and murdered a child in her care.

This is a woman with both a criminal record and a history of mental illness. But most churches don't do background checks on their employees or volunteers, so it's possible that nobody was aware of her past.

And it's a safe bet that at least some people gave her an automatic pass precisely because she was a Sunday school teacher.

When did her imaginary friend ever do this woman any good, Vera?

When it got her the job?

When it sent voices to tell her "you can stop taking your meds now" ?

When it didn't interfere to stop the abduction?

When it put the idea "we should drain the irrigation pond" into the head of someone in the sheriff's department? - That's how they found the body.

As for the little girl's imaginary friend, I'm not even gonna go there. But you'll reassure me the kid is happy now. Oh, yes, you will. Let me save you the trouble, here's the outcome in Vera's World:

The innocent child will be happy because that's what the imaginary being wants.

The shocked, grief-stricken parents who unwittingly placed her in the care of a lunatic, will be comforted because that's what the imaginary being wants.

Meanwhile in the real world:

The lunatic will spend years, probably decades, in a mental hospital. Her family will visit her there. Eventually she may be released (presumably depending on whether the imaginary being makes her well enough for that).

The taxpayer-supported and nonaccountable organization that connived to place a lunatic in charge of helpless children, will continue as a parasite on the larger community while being protected by long tradition from criticism of any kind. It will not need to answer for its behavior as any other organization would be required to do. (Because that's what's fair in the eyes of an imaginary being.)

Alternative possibility: If the church loses too many members, it may have to shut down and/or move to a more promising location. But it won't have to change its hiring practices because that would require a change in the law, and few legislators will stand up to a church. (Because they're afraid that their imaginary friends might not like that.)

If some district attorney has the nerve and the legal authority to launch an investigation into the church's hiring practices, s/he risks electoral defeat. (Imaginary beings can't vote but they do have definite political preferences.)

And heaven (!) help the judge who awards damages to the family should they choose to sue the church for negligence in the death of their daughter. S/he will never hear the end of it.

(Because the imaginary being doesn't like judges. They're just too hung up on that little ole human invention, the rule of law, including that quaint notion of due diligence.)

verandoug said...

Complexity doesn't mean unexplainability.When you are proposing that this complexity came about naturally, it does require an explanation. It is unexplainable in that light because it is virtually impossible if you consider the statistical odds. There is no way under the harsh conditions of the early earth that these things could have organized all by their little ole selves creating this living creature that builds proteins. Even the idea of these things coming from outer space is ludicrous because of the background radiation. And you are still left with the problem of organization somewhere else.

I was studying nursing the other day on the reproductive system and considering the Bartholin's glands and see, that is such a neat little feature in us as girls. I mean, how do you get around stuff like that? It is such a perfect design feature for us for the birthing process and copulation. I was thinking that this feature does not necessarily promote survivability, but simply a comfortable process. I suppose a baby could get stuck if there was no lubricant which would be deleterious for the baby and the mom. So it is probably likely that these glands existed in the first creatures that walked the earth. It is that kind of thing that points to a Designer.

I have about 5 chapters just on the birthing process alone going through this sequence of events where it comes to a baby growing and then the mom giving birth. It is such a complex system of dynamics that produce a living child. In fact, all through these nursing books they will tell you that this or that body part is for a specific necessary purpose and when it is gone, there must be an accommodating factor introduced.

Vera

verandoug said...

Leigh

Until you learn to listen, you will never get anywhere in life. You have refused to listen to anyone but yourself. So it is no surprise that you are walking away. I asked you if you would tolerate these characteristics in your children because clearly you think fornication and abortion is ok? If this is your moral standard, then I don't see that your children are that righteous. IOW, what are we basing our critique of our children on? Your standard is far below God's standard. I wouldn't consider my children doing well if that were the case. I have one that I can honestly say does not live up to God's holy standards and I would freely admit that.

This is from the web site you sent me
In reality, ad hominem is unrelated to sarcasm or personal abuse. Argumentum ad hominem is the logical fallacy of attempting to undermine a speaker's argument by attacking the speaker instead of addressing the argument.You do this constantly in your rebuttals.

Ad Hominem from The Nizor Project:

An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument. Typically, this fallacy involves two steps. First, an attack against the character of person making the claim, her circumstances, or her actions is made (or the character, circumstances, or actions of the person reporting the claim). Second, this attack is taken to be evidence against the claim or argument the person in question is making (or presenting). This type of "argument" has the following form:

Person A makes claim X.
Person B makes an attack on person A.
Therefore A's claim is false.

The reason why an Ad Hominem (of any kind) is a fallacy is that the character, circumstances, or actions of a person do not (in most cases) have a bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim being made (or the quality of the argument being made).

Example of Ad Hominem

Bill: "I believe that abortion is morally wrong."
Dave: "Of course you would say that, you're a priest."
Bill: "What about the arguments I gave to support my position?"
Dave: "Those don't count. Like I said, you're a priest, so you have to say that abortion is wrong. Further, you are just a lackey to the Pope, so I can't believe what you say."
If you want to stick around, answer the questions politely and stay on topic. Stop attacking me and mocking me. These attacks do not make your version of the truth = truth.

Vera

Kerri Love said...

You spoke of childbirth and that got me thinking...

Why do men have nipples?

“In the first weeks of life, a fetus has no anatomic or hormonal sex, and only a karyotype distinguishes male from female.” From Wiki.

If we were “designed” by God and Adam was created first, then how do you explain this? Why do men, who were supposed to be created first, develop nipples at all? In the first few weeks of life, we develop equaily, it’s not until later we start to develop as female and male. If God designed us and the Bible is the word of God then only females should have nipples. There is no reason for men to develop nipples so why would God design humans with a feature that has no value?

Kerri Love said...

Sorry, I feel I should add that this event, men having nipples, means the design is not perfect. that's all :)

verandoug said...

Male nipple argument from another post of mine:

From wikipedia (three different articles):

However, the erection of nipples is not due to erectile tissue, but due to the contraction of smooth muscle under the control of the autonomic nervous system.

The ANS has far reaching effects, including: heart rate, digestion, respiration rate, salivation, perspiration, diameter of the pupils, micturition (the discharge of urine), and sexual arousal.

The nipple and areola of males and females can be erotic receptors, or considered sex organs. Stimulation or sexual arousal can cause the nipples to become erect, due to the release of the polypeptide neurotransmitter oxytocin.
You have to realize that sexual pleasure is part of God's design. :-)

Vera

Kerri Love said...

You have to realize that sexual pleasure is part of God's design. :-)God put nipples on men for pleasure? That doesn't really make sense to me. My boyfriend told me he doesn't get any pleasure from his. I don't really either, I find it to be an uncomfortable feeling. I guess we're just diffective :P

verandoug said...

ImtheRabbit
God put nipples on men for pleasure? That doesn't really make sense to me. My boyfriend told me he doesn't get any pleasure from his. I don't really either, I find it to be an uncomfortable feeling. I guess we're just diffective :P Hmmm. Lest we start the sex education course for fornicators, let me just say that this is true and when you get married, I'll tell you all about it. :-)

Vera

Kerri Love said...

We've said our vows to each other. I know that might not be good enough for a good Christian like yourself, and I understand :), but at our age, getting a piece of paper just isn't all that important. He's pushing 50 and luckily for me, he's not all that interested in 'fornicating' That isn't all that important in our lives. I've never really been a fan of that kind of thing. I think I'm somewhat defective. I think that's probably to much information :P

verandoug said...

We've said our vows to each other. I know that might not be good enough for a good Christian like yourself, and I understand :), but at our age, getting a piece of paper just isn't all that important. He's pushing 50 and luckily for me, he's not all that interested in 'fornicating' That isn't all that important in our lives. I've never really been a fan of that kind of thing. I think I'm somewhat defective. I think that's probably to much information :P A vow is a vow. I can receive that.

Touch his chest next time.... It will prove to you what I am talking about.

Vera

verandoug said...

I DO NOT BELIEVE IN ANY IMAGINARY FRIEND TO BEGIN WITH.I know except He is real. Why do you think you are drawn back to talking to me?

Vera

verandoug said...

You claimed that atheists control the public school system. Don't try to squirm out of that by calling this guy "just some nut." If atheists are in control, then things like this DO NOT HAPPENOK, so the atheists must have sanctioned this since they are in control . . . . or. . . . Mr. Freshwater, exerting his own freewill choice, acted out from under the authority and jurisdiction of the ps school system and the church for that matter.

Vera

verandoug said...

weemaryanne
'm not crying out to your imaginary friend because it ain't there. I'd only be talking to myself. And because you won't act in humility, you will never know Him.

Vera

verandoug said...

weemaryanne,

I am so glad you brought this up because this argument discounts several other passages of Scripture that would clue you in on God's heart on homosexuality. Even if David and Jonathan had something like that going on (which they didn't), it wouldn't make it right or righteous. David committed adultery with a woman whilst her husband was away from home, got her pregnant, and then had her husband killed. Hands down, this is not the right thing to do and we shouldn't assume that it is the right thing to do just because David did it. Nathan, the prophet, was quick to tell him that he was sinning and in big trouble with God. Since God annihilated the Sodomites for this sin (amongst other things), it is obvious that if David were up to this, Nathan would have been quick to come back and let him know. So that is one point.

By failing to read the next verse as well, you miss the underlying reasoning behind Saul's anger, which has nothing to do with sex.

For as long as the son of Jesse liveth upon the ground, thou shalt not be established, nor thy kingdom. Wherefore now send and fetch him unto me, for he shall surely die.Also, if you want to know what a word means, it is a good idea to see how it is used in other passages of Scripture. Here is 1 Chr. 32:21

And the LORD sent an angel, which cut off all the mighty men of valour, and the leaders and captains in the camp of the king of Assyria. So he returned with shame of face to his own land. And when he was come into the house of his god, they that came forth of his own bowels slew him there with the sword.Secondly, Saul was an idiot. He is out asking witches for help. He was trying to kill David long before this. So Jonathan couldn't believe it. David asked him to see how his father would react if he stopped showing up at the table.

So Saul gets furious with his son because he knows that Jonathan is helping David and that this is going to ruin his kingship. He never calls him a homosexual but does say that he shamed his mother's nakedness. Saul is actually calling him a shame to himself. Someone who brings reproach on him and the woman who gave birth to him. These guys had a lot of wives. He throws a huge jab again at his mother by calling her a perverse rebel. This was probably not true at all either. It is the ultimate low blow in an argument even today to say something about your mama. You know what I mean?

What is Jonathan's reaction to this accusation?

And Jonathan answered Saul his father, and said unto him, Wherefore shall he be slain? what hath he done? And Saul cast a javelin at him to smite him: whereby Jonathan knew that it was determined of his father to slay David. So Jonathan arose from the table in fierce anger, and did eat no meat the second day of the month: for he was grieved for David, because his father had done him shame.Jonathan clearly believed that David was righteous in all that he has done and is angry because his father is a putting him down publicly and coming after David for no reason. These people didn't think like modern Americans, btw. They were grossly offended by dishonor. There was zero tolerance for homosexuality.

Now, one wonders why you would believe those who would try to read something perverse into the Scriptures, when God's law so clearly calls this an abomination?

Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it [is] abomination. Lev 18:22

Lastly, you can't pull out one verse of Scripture to make a point. You have to look at the whole picture. Otherwise, we can make the Bible say whatever we want.

Vera

verandoug said...

weemaryanne
I'm not sitting in a ditchTrue. You are a rich woman for which Jesus said it would be easier to push a camel through the eye of a needle than for you to get into heaven. You trust in your riches and you think you have no need.

Vera

verandoug said...

Weemaryanne,
I think I already answered this so I won't tell you again that the Bible clearly teaches that if you are sinning, you aren't saved. I don't think Mel Gibson is saved. No drunkard will inherit the kingdom. Will he have an opportunity to repent before he dies? I hope so.

My discernment tells me that any guy who brands a cross on a kid's arm is, among other things:

1) Certainly Christian, at least in his own mind;

What he thinks in his mind is irrelevant. We will know them by their fruits.

2) Abusive and unfit for teaching by any standards; and
Agreed

3) Possibly - though not necessarily - clinically insane.
Agreed

Clearly these characteristics are not mutually exclusive. But one thing John Freshwater is NOT, is an atheist.
He could be anything, wma.

And you know something, Vera? It's much too easy for you to sniff and mutter "Not a Troo Christian."
It is easy. Thank God. All we have to do is to judge the character of the person to see where they stand with a Holy God.

You've passed that judgement on men as different as President George W. Bush and President Barack Obama. I'm beginning to wonder who counts as a Real Troo Christian in your allegedly Christian nation.
One who believes, confesses Jesus Christ, and is filled with the Spirit of God to walk free from sin. See, you can test that as well.

There is more that can be put to the test besides nature.

Oh, but it's not a Christian nation, because the atheists have control of it.

Or, no, wait, they only control the public school system.

But they don't have enough control to prevent a teacher from branding crosses on kids, in broad daylight, more than once. So, they're not really in control after all, now are they?

I guarantee you that they were up in arms.

Vera

verandoug said...

weemaryanne

The taxpayer-supported and nonaccountable organization that connived to place a lunatic in charge of helpless children, will continue as a parasite on the larger community while being protected by long tradition from criticism of any kind. It will not need to answer for its behavior as any other organization would be required to do. (Because that's what's fair in the eyes of an imaginary being.)That part would be true. It is difficult for a real Christian to get a job anymore without being labeled a "hater." See that's because real Christians are totally intolerant of all sexual perversion. The only place sex belongs is between a husband and wife.

You are only intolerant of this wicked evil woman's offense because a child was killed. I wouldn't have hired her when she told me that she was a homosexual fornicating adulterous (take your pick) Christian complete with a rainbow pin but she's forgiven at the end of the day. An atheist wouldn't see it that way. I would know right away that she was no Christian. Just a few simple questions and I would know. You wouldn't have that same discernment but would appreciate all the tolerant yibbity yab.

Vera

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